> It's not a question of what you are advocating, but of
> the real effect of what you are advocating. Marx
> advocated a society of abundance because he thought
> that communism would unfetter the forces of
> production. Moore argues that Marx was wrong about the
> probable effect of eliminating markets. It was markets
> that unfettered those forces. Marx identifies nothing
> else that would increase productivity other than
> markets.
>
> Your idea is that we can do OK on the detritus of
> capitalsit technology, but that presumes -- what --
> maintenance. I Guess we'd end up in a couple
> generations like Cuba, cannibalizing old cars and
> computers for parts. But stuff wears out. Asa
> technological society, this would not be sustainable.
>
> I have nothing against subsistence societies. I would
> not say they are "bad." I recently quoted Marshall
> Shalins on hunter-gathering societies as the first
> affluent societies. But I wouldn't want to live in
> one. I doubt whether most workers would either. I
> think especially well of modern medicine, anasthesia,
> antibiotics, etc.
OK. But if you want to keep all of this stuff going, then capitalism has to continue. Is that what the "leftists" on this list want? What do you do when crucial resources run out?
My position is that if we are serious about creating an egalitarian world with freedom for each person, where people and communities are going to have control over their lives, then that determines what that world would look like.
If I'm off in my community, enjoying my freedom, growing vegetables, fixing houses, and hanging out with the neighbors over some homebrew, how are you going to comple me to work in some factory to support your high tech society. A nice, kindler socialist whip?
Let me explain this another way. Leftists have been going on ad infinitum for centuries about the need for workers to "seize the means of production." What if they did that, decided they didn't want to work in factories and offices anymre, and went home to live differently? Who is going to compel them to go back to work in a factory or some office? What are you going to do if a significant amount of the world's population decides that they don't want to work shitty jobs anymore? In a society of free people, how are you going to find volunteers to run the plastics manufacturing plant?
Chuck0