On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:54:27 -0700 (PDT) andie nachgeborenen
<andie_nachgeborenen at yahoo.com> writes:
> There is an interesting elision here. Usually the idea
> that "the State of Israel has no right to exist" is a
> thinly veiled euphemism for a call for its military
> destruction, accompannied with a massacre of Iaraeli
> Jews. But you use this expression to refer to the idea
> that Israel has a right to maintain its
> ethnic-religious charactera gainst the peaceful and
> democratic determinations of the entire population
> that Israel in fact governs. So, do I believe that
> Israel has right to maintain its charcter as a
> Jewish state while ruling over a non-Jewish majority
> whose rights it denies and which is makes second class
> citizens? No, I don't. Does that make me a
> self-hating Jew? No. It does make me an Enlightenment
> liberal and a small d-democrat, though. jks
Years ago, Rabbi Meir Kahane used to phrase the issue in similar terms. Referring to the demographic issue, he argued that Israel could exist either as as Jewish but non-democratic state, or it could exist as a democracy but would eventually lose its character as a democratic state. Kahane was denounced by other Zionists as being a racist (which of course he was), and his party was banned from the Knesset, but IMO he was at the time, one of the few Zionists who was willing to face the issue in a half-way honest manner, which was why he was denounced so vociferously in Israel.
As Kahane once put it in an interview:
http://www.kahane.org/meir/interview.htm --------------------------------------------- Q: Would you accept a situation in which there was democracy only for the Jews and not for the Arabs?
A: I'll answer that question later. First let me explain why everybody is mad at me. It's because I have confronted people with the following contradiction: you can't have Zionism and democracy at the same time. And for those who criticize me, it's very difficult to get out of this contradiction. Now let me answer your question. First of all, Western democracy has to be ruled out. For me that's cut and dried: there's no question of setting up democracy in Israel, because democracy means equal rights for all, irrespective of racial or religious origins. Therefore democracy and Zionism cannot go together. And Israel's Declaration of Independence, which proclaimed this state to be a Jewish state, is a totally schizophrenic document. You just can't, on the one hand, want a Jewish state and at the same time give non-Jews the right to become a majority. When Abba Eban makes beautiful speeches in twelve languages and starts talking about Jewish democracy-what on earth does that mean, Jewish democracy? Let's get back to your question and let me talk about democracy as far as Jews are concerned. Do I accept democracy for Judaism? My answer is: Judaism does not accept democracy unless it is within a structure that adheres to the law of the Torah. I challenge any rabbi to contradict me on this. My hope as a religious Jew, which is the hope of every sincere and religious Jew, is to have a state governed by the Torah. If one accepts the commandments of the Torah, then democracy is conceivable within the framework of those commandments. Of course, nobody could vote against these commandments. Nobody could question the fact that the government has to abide by the Torah. There is no question of letting people vote for or against the commandments of the Torah. This can't be decided by a vote. However, if this objective cannot be reached without having a civil war in Israel, then I'd give it up. Therefore I hope that we'll be able to convince a majority of Jews to create a state governed by the Torah, and that the minority will accept it. And then, if that means voting in elections every four years so as to have a government in compliance with the Torah, of course I'd accept it. But I can't say that I'd be pleased with it. ----------------------------------------------------
Jim F.
>
>
> --- Jordan Hayes <jmhayes at j-o-r-d-a-n.com> wrote:
> > > From: "joanna bujes" <jbujes at covad.net>
> > >
> > > I have no problem with a one state solution, full
> > rights
> > > of citizenship for Palestinians, reparations, and
> > the right
> > > to return for Palestinians.
> >
> > The usual response to this is "that would mean the
> > end of a Jewish state
> > of Israel" ... so I guess it comes back to: do you
> > believe that a Jewish
> > state of Israel has a right to exist?
> >
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