[lbo-talk] Chechnya

[Chris Doss]

>www.washingtonpost.com
>Transcript: Putin Interview with American journalists
>September 20, 2003
>
>
>Beth Knobel (CBS News): Excuse me, I know that this is not your favorite
>topic, but I must ask you about Chechnya. There will be elections in
>Chechnya in two weeks, and I would like to ask you two questions
>concerning
>Chechnya.
>
>What do you think -- what changes should take place in Chechnya,
>especially
>as many Chechens do not trust [Akhmad] Kadyrov, they think that he is also
>involved in several unseemly types of activity. And the second question.
>What do you expect will happen in Chechnya after the elections, what will
>the "road map" look like, how will peace be restored and built in
>Chechnya,
>and what will be done so that terrorist acts do not take place, which have
>taken place virtually every day?
>
>Vladimir Putin: You said I didn't like questions about Chechnya. You were
>mistaken. Chechnya is a part of the Russian Federation. How can I not like
>questions about Russia? I don't like provocative questions, that is true.
>But this does not just concern Chechnya. On the contrary, I thank you for
>this question, and I will answer it for you and your readers and viewers,
>and everyone who is interested in this problem.
>
>Since the beginning of the '90s, and perhaps since the end of the '80s,
>Chechnya has lived in conditions of total violence. I assure you no one
>needs this. The average citizen often does not even understand what is
>happening there, he is simply led by the nose. People simply suffer and
>don't even realize what for. As a result of the power vacuum that was
>formed at the beginning of the 1990s, real power fell into the hands of
>extremists, who promised everything, but in fact only shot and robbed
>people and sold them as slaves.
>
>When in 1999 we faced an attack on the neighboring republic of Dagestan,
>it
>became clear that international terrorism, which had become established on
>the territory of Chechnya, was no longer satisfied with devouring the
>Chechen people, this was no longer enough for it; it went further, beyond
>its borders. You know about this. And who were these people? Who were
>these
>fighters who attacked Dagestan? They were essentially people who were
>closely connected with al Qaeda, with other such organizations which
>trained at their bases and armed themselves on their money. Essentially,
>the same people who two years later attacked American cities.
>
>I don't want to talk right now about how the international community
>reacted to these events. But I want to tell you that even at that time --
>and earlier, especially in the period beginning in 1999 -- the Chechen
>people themselves finally realized that what people who had seized power
>in
>Chechnya were doing had nothing in common with the interests of the
>Chechen
>people. Ordinary Chechens were against the attacks on Dagestan. Did they
>want a war with their neighbors? Of course not.
>
>Yes, at the very beginning many of my colleagues and I were told, "Better
>to abandon them, leave them alone, let them sort things out there for
>themselves, you won't find any support among the Chechen population
>anyway,
>you won't find a single Chechen on the side of the federal forces and
>federal power."
>
>Currently, there's a prosecutor's office, an institute of law, a ministry
>of justice and a government functioning in Chechnya. In every region, in
>every village there is a power body headed, of course, by local residents.
>As you know, several months ago a referendum was held on a constitution,
>which stated in black and white that Chechnya is an unalienable part of
>the
>Russian Federation. This document was prepared in Chechnya itself. And I
>must tell you that our lawyers argued for a long time with the authors of
>this document, with Chechens, over the wording. Several wordings were on
>the edge of the Russian Constitution. This constitution of Chechnya gives
>very wide, autonomous authority to the Chechen republic.
>
>The next step we must take is to elect a president there. And indeed,
>these
>elections should take place soon. Mr. Kadyrov, whom you mentioned, fought
>in the so-called first Chechen war against the federal Russian forces on
>the side of the so-called separatists. And the fact that we agreed to
>appoint him as the head of the Chechen administration, I think, is the
>best
>proof of our intention to talk and attract people of the most varied
>convictions to work on normalizing Chechnya.
>
>It must be said that we are continuing this work with other people who
>have
>their own views on the development of the Chechen Republic. Some time ago,
>several deputies of the former parliament of Chechnya appealed directly to
>the administration of Chechnya and to us. We do not acknowledge the
>legality of this parliament, but it did function and work. They appealed
>to
>us and said that they wanted to take part in the political process which
>is
>currently developing in Chechnya.
>
>Just as in the case with Mr. Kadyrov, we not only did not object, we
>supported their frame of mind and their plans. In accordance with their
>laws and the old constitution of Chechnya -- which, I repeat, the Russian
>Federation never acknowledged de jure -- in accordance with this document
>they gathered, on their own initiative, the necessary amount of signatures
>to declare an impeachment of [Aslan] Maskhadov within the framework of
>this
>constitution. And they achieved this.
>
>I want to stress that we will continue to expand the basis of political
>interaction with everyone who wants normal development in Chechnya,
>regardless of their political views. But, of course, we will not hold
>talks
>with terrorists -- just as the United States does not intend to hold talks
>with the leaders of al Qaeda.
>
>But as for Mr. Kadyrov, he was not only just an active member of an
>illegal
>armed formation at one time, but after the military operations ended,
>after
>1995, I believe, he also became a spiritual leader, the mufti of Chechnya.
>
>
>As you know, we met almost by accident. I invited him to the Kremlin to a
>meeting of leaders of Muslim communities of the Northern Caucasus, which
>included him. Quite honestly, we did not expect that he would come. And I
>think this was also because at that time this was quite dangerous for him.
>But he did come. And I talked for quite a long time with representatives
>of
>the Islamic church. He was rather obstinate, you know, and kept asking
>unexpected questions. But I must say that a number of my questions, and my
>assessment of the situation in Chechnya, put him in a difficult position
>himself. He did not know how to reply.
>
>Later, when the issue was decided on his possible appointment as the head
>of administration, I told him directly, "We will not object to your active
>involvement in political work, but you must decide for yourself: this is
>your life, your destiny and your people. Is this what you need now? Maybe
>it would be better to do this later? Because the situation is very
>complicated at the moment. I don't know if you will be able to organize
>administrative work, but you will immediately face problems. The federal
>forces will suspect you of having ties with separatists and terrorists,
>and
>the people with whom you recently fought will consider you the man who
>betrayed them."
>
>I must say that I was pleased with his reply. He said, "Of course, I would
>like to have some sort of political influence. But you must understand, I
>have looked in the face of death many times, and was almost killed. And I
>don't know what fate has in store for me. But if I can do something for my
>people, I am obliged to do it now, and the rest is up to Allah."  So this 
>was his own choice. And everything that I warned him about is
>taking place. All these dangers have arisen. But he should be given credit
>-- he turned out to be quite a consistent leader, although he doesn't have
>enough administrative experience, but where could he get it from? I think
>that he has the most important quality -- he truly wants to normalize the
>situation in Chechnya, he is truly attempting to achieve the maximum of
>what can be done now for the people in the conditions of Chechnya. And he
>doesn't spare any efforts for this. He is an open, decent and honest
>person.
>
...


>
>Steven Lee Myers (New York Times): About the elections in Chechnya. There
>has been information recently that six servicemen were killed and 130
>people were detained in one of the villages, that there is political
>persecution of candidates, that two candidates left --one was appointed to
>a higher position and the other one was disqualified by the court. So
>under
>those circumstances, how could you describe the coming elections as honest
>and fair?
>
>Vladimir Putin: As for the arguments between the candidates, their coming
>and going, I'm ready to explain to you a few details. This will be part of
>my answer and the second part of the answer will be related to terrorists
>becoming more active. It's all natural that they all want to wreck this
>election. It is very natural. How can they do that? They attempted to
>stage
>a big terrorist act in Moscow with a hostage-taking at a theater. A whole
>series of explosions using cars stuffed with explosives in the Caucasus
>and
>in other parts of the country followed. It's an attempt to provoke the
>federal authorities to respond harshly, which would strike, at least
>partially, the civilian population. What they are hoping for is to provoke
>us so that we strike back hitting the civilian population, eliminating
>people's desire to go to the polling station. It's a very simple
>calculation.
>
>And as you can see, in the course of these operations there might be
>losses
>among the troops but there is no mass response unlike other regions of the
>world where the responses are massive missile strikes or bombings. They
>want us to do that, we will not do that. We will not give them that gift.
>
>I will not hide it from you, it's hard for me personally to exercise
>restraint, it's difficult for the whole military to exercise restraint.
>But
>we'll follow that course.
>
>From the point of view of domestic politics in Russia that would be
>perhaps
>the most effective response, but from the point of view of the substance
>of
>the matter, from the point of view of a settlement in Chechnya, this would
>be a huge mistake. This would be a gift to terrorists and they will not
>get
>this gift from us.
>
>The situation in Chechnya is perfectly ripe for electing a president and I
>have no doubts about it and Chechens themselves insist on that.

....
>
>
>Peter Baker (The Washington Post): Steven Pifer, the deputy assistant
>secretary of state, recently spoke about Chechnya to the Helsinki
>Commission. He criticized what he called "deplorable violations of human
>rights" and said "Moscow's black and white treatment of the conflict makes
>cooperation in the war on terrorism more difficult as its conduct of
>counter-terrorist operations in Chechnya fuels sympathy for the
>extremists'
>cause and undermines Russia's international credibility. This in turn has
>a
>deleterious effect on the overall U.S.-Russian relationship." He also said
>that the legitimacy of the election in Chechnya "is being slowly
>undermined." And he said, "The conflict in Chechnya and the human rights
>abuses associated with it pose one of the greatest challenges to our
>partnership with Russia."
>
>Does the conflict in Chechnya hurt the U.S. relationship with Russia? How
>do you respond?
>
>Vladimir Putin: I wouldn't like to comment on mid-level State Department
>officials. I'll let Colin [Powell] deal with him. He is a pro and a very
>decent man. In the current administration he is one of our contacts. But
>we
>have a proverb in Russia -- in every family there will be somebody who is
>ugly or retarded. So if somebody wants to cast a shadow on the
>Russian-U.S.
>relationship, that's not hard to do. We've been doing everything we can to
>normalize the situation in Chechnya and we are sorry if somebody doesn't
>see that happening. I have already spoken about the tactics chosen by the
>terrorists who launch constant terrorist strikes at our peaceful
>population, counting on us to act the same way towards the peaceful people
>in Chechnya. By the way, it seems to me that in the Middle East, the
>Israelis cannot resist, so they are striking in response and by that are
>just helping the terrorists.
>
>I didn't want to speak in front of the cameras. I was very careful talking
>about different approaches. You know, we have such a term: double
>standards.
>
>Now I'll be more specific about what I meant here. We have this citizen,
>[Zelimkhan] Yandarbiyev, who currently resides in Qatar. And he is
>included
>on the U.N. terrorist black list as an international terrorist and the
>U.S.
>voted for this decision. And we know for a fact that he maintains direct
>ties and contacts with the military contingents originating from the
>Northern Caucasus that are fighting in Afghanistan, fighting against
>Americans as well, against your soldiers.
>
>According to unconfirmed intelligence -- but we have this information
>confirmed in other regions -- U.S. officials have met him in Qatar as a
>representative of a kind of opposition in Chechnya. And we have examples
>and data that U.S. officials meet with similar kinds of people, bastards.
>I
>do not think that this is consistent with the international interests of
>the U.S. But this is not my business to assess the danger for the U.S.
>
>If someone thinks -- including that figure you mentioned -- that it's
>possible to close your eyes to the fact that Mr. Yandarbiyev directs
>terrorist actions against Americans in Afghanistan, that it's possible to
>close your eyes only because he is somehow spoiling things for Russia in
>the Caucasus, so what, then it's the choice these people make. I think
>this
>is a wrong choice.
>
>In regards to human rights: This is something that is extremely important
>but we have to have a common understanding of these problems. If we are
>talking about Chechnya, remember in, let's say, the mid '90s nearly all
>Russians, Slavs, Jews and others had been massacred in Chechnya but nobody
>thinks about their human rights. They were forgotten. There has been no
>assessment of the events related to the attack on Dagestan. We talk and
>talk about it but our partners are silent, they all keep silent as if
>their
>mouths are full of water. That was outright aggression and everybody was
>tightlipped as if nothing happened in that area.
>
>If we speak about human rights in substance, we can always find something
>that will complicate our relationship. You know we sympathize with your
>guys who accomplish a difficult mission in Iraq. The political decision,
>which we believe to be wrong, is one thing. It's another thing to
>implement
>the orders on site. I know what it is like, I know how hard their lives
>are
>there. Try yourself to wear ammunition at 50 degrees [Celsius] when you
>are
>exposed any minute to the possibility of being killed.
>
>Are you sure everything is all right with human rights there? Or should we
>try to dig in there and improve our interstate relationships? Or take
>Afghanistan. Are you sure that everything was so good with human rights
>there during hostilities or even now? Or should I recall for you the
>tragic
>events that took place? And how do we qualify those who are now are being
>kept in Guantanamo Bay at the Cuban base. Who are they? Are they protected
>by humanitarian law or by international law? Who are they? If we seek to
>find problems that will complicate interstate relations, naturally we will
>find them. What I would like to say is that life is much more complicated
>than those things that sound nice and look very beautiful on paper.
>Naturally we have to pull together our efforts.
>
>We should not in any way under the pretext of the fight against terrorism
>worsen the situation with human rights. We have to finally get rid of a
>mentor's tone and the habit of lecturing each other. We have to become
>partners, we have to support each other and help each other. That's what
>we
>want. We are prepared for that and we will strive to achieve that.
>
>Paul Quinn-Judge (Time): How many Russian citizens are in Guantanamo? And
>also, many Chechen officials complain about kidnappings in Chechnya. They
>claim that the kidnappings are related to the activities of the Russian
>security services. What is your attitude towards such statements and are
>you ready to take measures?  Vladimir Putin: They are not many but there 
>are some. We were provided by
>the U.S. with full information and representatives of Russian
>law-enforcement agencies went to Guantanamo and even participated in
>questioning. But there are problems of a legal nature. It is not
>incidental
>that I asked the question who are they, who they are. This is not a
>rhetorical question, this is a legal question. Because the situation may
>develop so we have nothing to incriminate them and that they are innocent
>and are kept there for nothing. And no indictment would be made. And what
>they say is, "I was sitting and praying to Allah and the Americans came
>and
>seized me and then I found myself in Cuba. I am innocent." No charges have
>been filed. And so we may have problems of a legal nature just to hold
>them
>accountable.
>
>I do not trust them, I trust the Americans. Because in reality they are
>rebels, of course, and they had nothing [good] to do there. But from a
>legal point of view and from the point of view of human rights, there are
>of course questions.
>
>With regards to the question of abduction of people and participation of
>Russian special services in that, there is nothing new to me. Everything
>is
>clear cut. Russian special services have no need to abduct people. We
>exercise control over the territory. We have the opportunity to detain
>anybody, we have the opportunity to question anybody, if we need to, and
>to
>file a criminal case.
>
>With regard to abduction, what it may mean in Chechnya, it's a part of the
>culture of certain people in the Caucasus, unfortunately that sounds so,
>but this is a fact. In the past, 99 people were sold out at the market
>openly. By our estimates, about 2,000 people were bought and sold. The
>Chechens themselves admitted that such things had never happened in the
>past, that Chechens abducted Chechens themselves. Certain groups of people
>-- there are not many, but still there are some -- they commit crimes
>wearing camouflage uniforms and it's very hard to figure out who they are,
>federal forces, local law enforcement agencies or just some bandits.
>
>And in spite of the fact that there is a fairly complex attitude towards
>what is going on in Chechnya, we institute court proceedings against
>someone. We just do it to the end. There are exceptional court proceedings
>-- say, in the case with Colonel [Yuri] Budanov. The investigation lasted
>for almost two years, it was suspended, he was acquitted, there were
>sentences, the prosecutor general's office would file appeals over and
>over
>again, return the case for the new hearing. But in the long run, he was
>sentenced. But I already talked about how, when military operations were
>underway, it was hard to follow the situation -- as hard as it is now in
>Iraq and as it was in Afghanistan and it is now. So to set certain high
>demands for Russia now, I don't think this would be fair. I don't know any
>examples when countries -- and I do not mean the U.S. now, there are many
>countries participating in Iraq and Afghanistan -- do you think the
>situation with human rights is normal there? Has any of the military been
>held liable, sentenced? I don't know about such examples and we do
>sentence
>them and the number of those sentences is already over 100. I don't
>remember the figure exactly, but new cases are being filed.

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