<HTML>In a message dated 2/8/2003 10:20:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, dhenwood@panix.com writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Subj:Re: suicide/homicide >tags Date:2/8/2003 10:20:33 AM Pacific Standard Time From:<A HREF="mailto:dhenwood@panix.com">dhenwood@panix.com</A> Reply-to:<A HREF="mailto:lbo-talk@lists.panix.com">lbo-talk@lists.panix.com</A> To:<A HREF="mailto:lbo-talk@lists.panix.com">lbo-talk@lists.panix.com</A> Sent from the Internet martin wrote: >Why not accept the common term - martyr? It is decidedly simpler (for >communication) to share a commonly recognized name for a known, >experienced phenomenon. Much more enabling to moving the process of >understanding forward. You're kidding, right? You want to endorse the religious message behind the use of the word "martyr" - that killing people in a pizzeria will earn you a trip to paradise? Doug </BLOCKQUOTE> Here's how I like to think of it: --Martyr = willing to die for a cause; actually died in the name of a cause. Not necessarily required to kill anyone else. Theology left to those who suffer martyrdom and their posthumous spin doctors. For myself, I can easily buy the "die for a cause" part, keep the conversations on the Middle East conflict to limit some other possible digressions, and leave out the theology for now. --Murderer / homicide perpetrator = having killed other people. There may or may not be any lofty motivation behind the killing, but  becoming a murderer does not autmatically mean one will die for their trouble. Application of this term in the Middle East left to other posts or to your imagination. --Suicide bomber = willing to both kill and die in the effort.  My preferred term. I think suicide bombers do correctly terrify Israel. Demographically, Israel has no prayer of pretending to be both democratic and a Jewish state. Before the suicide bombings, Israel's "anti-terrorism" strategies amounted to killing 10 Palestinians for every Israeli killed. And still the Palestinian terror campaigns continued. Suicide bombers have successfully changed that ratio from 10-1 t about 4 or 5 Palestinians to 1 Israeli.. In other words, once the Palestinians bie voluntarily and increase the Israeli casualty count, there is no way the Israeli terror strategy can win. Some of us who are disgusted by Israeli strategy or who hold competing views of the underlying theology could have told them that a long time ago. Of course, the thelogy CANNOT be completely excluded from the equation. I once sat in on a local effort to have dialogue about the Middle East. Luckily everyone was unarmed, but the  evening started out with nearly AN HOUR of impassioned discussion about how to PRAY appropriately before even moving on to other topics. That actually turned out to be a very successful evening, partly because of the honest exchange and partly because people eventually found words within their theological understandings to get past shouting at each other. Of course I haven't Googled "nonviolent resistance" or "international relief" or anything like that. Offhand I am afraid the record count will be way less than "suicide bomber," but I dunno.... DoreneC</HTML>