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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And I mean that in the non-ironic sense - with full
justice to those in the Phil Ochs tradition who are uncomfortable with
liberalism not for its beliefs, but it's failure to live up to
them.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Which I think is where Justin would condemn most
American "liberals"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>-- Nathan</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=andie_nachgeborenen@yahoo.com
href="mailto:andie_nachgeborenen@yahoo.com">andie nachgeborenen</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=lbo-talk@lists.panix.com
href="mailto:lbo-talk@lists.panix.com">lbo-talk@lists.panix.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March 08, 2003 6:30
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> hypocrite liberal! mon
semblable, mon frère. (Was Re: W's transcript)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P>Doug says about my comment below, talking about why the collapse of the FSU
was a disaster::</P>
<P>> This is why you're not really a liberal. You get a bit of a
<BR>crossdressing thrill out of donning the label though, don't you?</P>
<P>First of I think that this is intended as a compliment, and I take it in
that spirit. </P>
<P>Nonetheless I am a liberal (and so are you, and so is almost everyone on
this list) in the fundamental sense of political liberalism: I support
representative, limited governent elected in competitive elections by
universal suffrage and backed up by extensive civil and political liberties
and rights. </P>
<P>I (and you, and indeed I think every single person on this list, including
the religious ones if there are any) am also a philosophical liberal in the
Enlightenment sense, that is, I accept the irreducible fact of
irreconcible diversity about ends and conceptions of the good life, and draw
from this the conclusion that government and society should be publically
secular and nonreligious, also not dominated by any one group's
conception of the good life.</P>
<P>Finally, I am (and so are you) fait de mieux a big gummint liberal in
the colloquial American sense in favor of higher taxes and more spending on
social programs, and less restrictive legislation into people's personal lives
(e.g., sexual habits), while also being pro-criminal defendent and civil
plaintiff. Of course I'm not in favor of many things that New Deal/Great
Society libs were in favor of, but that's a lot of shared ground.</P>
<P>So there are three senses, and only one provisional one, in which I am a
liberal. And so are you. And you, and you, and you, hypocrite liberal!
mon semblable, mon frère.</P>
<P>jks<BR><BR> <B><I>Doug Henwood <dhenwood@panix.com></I></B>
wrote:</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">andie
nachgeborenen wrote:<BR><BR>>That's always true, Luke. Since the future
is unwritten, it always <BR>>remains to be seen. Therefore that statement
is unhelpful and no <BR>>answer to anything. It was predictable -- I and
others predicted <BR>>(not quite accurately in detail, but accurate
enough) -- that the <BR>>collapse of central authority in the FSU would
be disaster for the <BR>>people of the FSU and the world. Actually when I
predicted it it the <BR>>SU wasn't F yet. It was obvious that the economy
would be dismantled <BR>>and looted by predators, that the leadership was
following a <BR>>disaterous Sachisna policy designed to impversih the
nation, and <BR>>that the US and the West had no good intentions towards
the FSU. <BR>>Moreover the collapse of the other superpower has destroyed
the <BR>>space left to small nations to maneouver and invested the US
with <BR>>power to engage ina lmsot unlimited imperialism. In short, the
<BR>>collapse of the USSR was a total disaster, and it was inevitable
<BR>>that it would be such. (The end of Stalinism, that's another
story.)<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><BR>
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