I think Nathan is right -- up to a point. At some point, if the US casualty count gets high enough, it will cease to be seen as a sacrifice and start to be seen as a waste. It is unclear whether the war will continue long enough for that to happen. Iraqi popular resistance to or rejhection of the invasion is likely to play a bigger role. Btw, heard a guy from USAID talking about potswar Irq, how we gonna write 'em new laws, give 'em new textbooks -- the current ones are unacceptable to us (and one presumes the Iraqis as well) because they are full of pro Baathist and anti-American propaganda, open their markets and reintegrate them into the world economy, and learn em democracy. This is a very close paraphrase of what he was saying. Do you think we should buy him a ticket to The Quiet American, very timely released?  Nathan Newman <nathanne@nathannewman.org> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Actually, Kelley's analysis is not cynical. I noticed before the war started that the American people were more opposed to war when it was associated with Iraqi civilian casualties than when it was associated with American military casualties. I think there is a strong discomfort by Americans with a "video game" war where we essentially shoot Iraqi fish in a barrel. But US soldiers dying shows that Americans are willing to sacrific for their ideals (in the minds of war supporters), so those deaths actually make the war more justified for many people I suspect. It also justifies the war to avenge their deaths, that every pleasant cycle of violence that drives most conflicts. What is most likely to dim American support is if the Iraqi internal opposition continues and it becomes clear that most of the population rejects our presence. This war was sold as a war of liberation and while the rightwing is comfortable with a war of conquest, the vast middle is not-- that is what will turn people most against the war, not American casualties. -- Nathan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck0" <CHUCK@MUTUALAID.ORG> To: <LBO-TALK@LISTS.PANIX.COM> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 11:31 AM Subject: Re: Elite Iraqi Guard Heads Toward Marines Kelley wrote: > > This si for all the reasons above. And, of course, they have all kinds > of propaganda tactics that will clinch it for them. E.g., Not only > will they lie about lost lives, they have in every single action we've > engaged in in my lifetime, even if the lies indicate that thousands > die, people are prepared for this. Not only are they prepared for it, > the hardcore war mongers support the use of ground troops (higher > troop death rates) than air war (low troop death rates) I really beg to differ with Kelley's cynical assessment of ! US support for heavy casualties. The polls may say one thing, but we're talking here about Americans used to thinking of violence in video game and movie terms. The bodybags will start coming home and more and more Americans will now somebody who lost a loved one "fighting for nothing," as the father of a dead soldier in Baltimore put it. Many Americans are pissed off at the government. Lots of people will become opposed to the war. On the other hand, some Americans will just become more angry at the Iraqis. More bodybags will stiffen their resolve. Throw in some racism on the airwaves and you might be able to whip up support for the war. I think the situation is too complex to support the idea that Americans will automatically put up with massive American casualities. Chuck0 </BLOCKQUOTE> <hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!? <a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/platinum/evt=8162/*http://platinum.yahoo.com/splash.html">Yahoo! Platinum</a> - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, <a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/platinum/evt=8162/*http://platinum.yahoo.com/splash.html">live on your desktop</a>!