<HTML> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> From: "Ian Murray" <seamus2001@attbi.com> You can't know that apriori, so your counterfactual is vacuous.</BLOCKQUOTE> ^^^^^^ CB: You can't know anything a priori, but you can know based on experience that use of deadly force is the likely only effective defense. ^^^^^ <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> =========================== You completely missed my point regarding when talk of justification becomes totally beside the point...................</BLOCKQUOTE> ^^^^^^^^ CB: I completely refuted your argument, and your points....................( see those little points; they're all refuted) <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">at. ========================== Great babble, Charles.</BLOCKQUOTE> ^^^^^^ CB: That babble's in the mind of the beholder. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> ^^^^^^ Again you miss the point, which is that violence negates the vocabulary of justification. </BLOCKQUOTE>When, in history, have the inaugurators of organized <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">violence ever cared, in a platonic, protagorean, humean, kantian pick a philosopher-lawyer of your goddam choice, whether what they were doing was justified. War is organized murder in an analogous manner that, "no matter how you dress them up, profits are uncompensated labor."</BLOCKQUOTE> ^^^^^^ CB: I pick Lenin. You miss the points that often fire must be met with fire and, that self-defense does not "inaugurate" violence and,  that self-defense has fundamental materialist justification  as self-preservation and survival.  If self-defense has no justification, nothing does. Your category "justified" is vacuous. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> </BLOCKQUOTE> </HTML>