<DIV>I expressly said that the Pacific war was an imperialist war. I did not say that it was anything but an imperialist war. I said that the US response was justified in general, is not in all the details, by traditional just war theory. I also said that from the different perspective of internationalism, it was better that US democratic imperialism won than quasi-fascist Japanese imperialism. I am quoting almost verbatim from what I wrote before. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't accept your account of what happened at Pearl Harbor, which in fact I regard as demented, but I don't think it matters. The US was justified in defending itself (by proportionate means) against Japanese attack, and socialists should have supported that defense, as indeed most did. That does not involve suspending the judgment that war was imperialist. It means (which is how we got into this) that some imperialist wars may be justified. jks<BR><BR><B><I>Shane Mage <shmage@pipeline.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <STYLE type=text/css></STYLE> <DIV>Justin;</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>You're right that the colonial status of Hawaii doesn't affect</DIV> <DIV>the "just war" nature of an international attack against</DIV> <DIV>a nation's armed forces.  But you're wrong that "Pearl Harbor"</DIV> <DIV>made WW II in the Pacific anything but an imperialist</DIV> <DIV>slaughter on both sides.  "Pearl Harbor" was the result</DIV> <DIV>of a deliberate, long-planned provocation:  the Japanese</DIV> <DIV>Empire was directly told that responding to the US oil</DIV> <DIV>embargo by invading the Dutch colonies would be met with</DIV> <DIV>a US attack,  and the Pearl Harbor base was deliberately left</DIV> <DIV>open to attack.  It was a "preemptive" attack in the most</DIV> <DIV>precise and "justified" sense.  But it was a deadly trap</DIV> <DIV>because you're also wrong that it didn't come close to</DIV> <DIV>"destroy the US Pacific fleet" there.  The only important</DIV> <DIV>part of the US Pacific Fleet, the Aircraft Carriers, were</DIV> <DIV>carefully sent away from Pearl Harbor.  Only obsolete</DIV> <DIV>battleships were lost and a priceless atmosphere of national</DIV> <DIV>racialist hysteria was gained.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Shane Mage<BR><BR>"Thunderbolt steers all things."         <SPAN></SPAN>           <SPAN></SPAN>           <SPAN></SPAN>           <SPAN></SPAN>           <SPAN></SPAN>    <BR></DIV> <DIV>Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">Hawaii wasn't a state then, but I don't grasp your point. That made it OK for the Japanese to attack and destroy the US Pacific fleet there? I laos dpon't get the "only 43 years" rule. How long does a natioon have to administer a territory to have a claim on it for just war purposes in your book? Do new nations have no such claims for J.W. purposes? The fact is, attacking somebody's fleet on their territory (or indeed, off it) is universally acknowledged to be an act of war. jks</BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><BR><I><B>LouPaulsen <LouPaulsen@attbi.com></B></I> wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "andie nachgeborenen"<BR>> The war against Japan was an imperialist war plain and simple, between two<BR>imperiali powers; although the US was justified in defending itself on the<BR>usual just war grounds, [...]<BR><BR>What, because of Pearl Harbor? That wasn't an attack on 'the US itself'.<BR>It was an attack on a US base in occupied Hawaii, which the US had conquered<BR>only 43 years earlier.<BR><BR>lp<BR><BR>___________________________________<BR>http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"> <HR SIZE=1> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">Do you Yahoo!?<BR><A href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/finance/mailsig/*http://tax.yahoo.com">Yahoo! Tax Center</A> - File online, calculators, forms, and more</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><p><br><hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br> <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/finance/mailsig/*http://tax.yahoo.com">Yahoo! Tax Center</a> - File online, calculators, forms, and more