<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Fine-- I recant.  But my analogy has been completely between the Cubans and the CPUSA, so why did you throw out the "cold war liberal" stuff that I was accusing the CPUSA of advocating violent revolution?  I thinks you are acting a bit rhetorically virtuous when you're own rhetoric was a bit muddy-- NN</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=andie_nachgeborenen@yahoo.com href="mailto:andie_nachgeborenen@yahoo.com">andie nachgeborenen</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org href="mailto:lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org">lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 15, 2003 5:05 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [lbo-talk] Cuba petition</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Speaking of baseless accusations, where have I even characterized, must less accused, Cuban dissidents of anything? I was responding to your very own comoarison of the Cuban dissidents to the CPUSA, which would charm bith sides. So in an extraordinary dishonest, i mean breathtaking creepy, rhetorical reversal, you make a bad analofy, defend it fiercely, and when I point out that the factual basis of one side if it is flawed, you accuse me of smearing the Cubans -- with your own analogy! Nathan, that is worthy of Leo Casey. Moreover, you also know that I have expressly condemned the repressiveness of the Cuban govt in thsi and other instances, so why are you trying to lump me with those who defend it? I just won't sign Casey's lousy petition. (I wouldn't sign a petition he wrote to get my _kids_ out of jail.) I will write letters for Amnesty. I challenge you to do likewise. This isn;t about building ficticious moral capiral to decide who is worthy to oppose the! US invasion of Cuba whena nd if it comes. It's about getting some people out of jail. jks<BR><BR><B><I>Nathan Newman <nathanne@nathannewman.org></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Who said anything about violent overthrow of the government?  The Cuban dissidents involved in these trials specifically supported political overthrow of the system-- that was the point of the Verela petition and movement.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The morphing of accusations against the Cubans involved is exactly the kind of rhetoric that McCarthy used.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Why is it so hard for people just to say, Castro is engaging in human rights violations of a high order here.  He is executing people and imprisoning non-violent dissidents.  Whether you agree with the "timing" of the petition against those acts, the refusal of people to just call a human rights violation a human rights violation is exactly the problem.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And why I'm doubly glad I signed the petition and hope many leftists follow suit.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>-- Nathan Newman</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=andie_nachgeborenen@yahoo.com href="mailto:andie_nachgeborenen@yahoo.com">andie nachgeborenen</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org href="mailto:lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org">lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 15, 2003 4:33 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [lbo-talk] Cuba petition</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>The CPUSA never wavered in its official view (from 1936 on) that it was seeking change by peaceful electoral means. It predicted fascist dictatorship during the McCarthy period, and asserted the right of revolution in the face of fascism, but it did not take an RCP like position that violent overthrow was its strategy. And while the CPUSA took money from the Soviets, who, btw, did not use the specific language of peaceful coexistence during the Pop Front Era, neither did the Soviet Union ever _officially_ adopt as its goal (at least after Lenin's death) the violent overthrow of the US govt; the chill of the Cold War period was, like the CPUSA's, due a prediction that US woquld initiate conflict, not to am unrealistic long or short term aspiration to overthrow it. You cold wat liberals buy all the old anticommunist myths -- Reds under the Bed, seeking to Overthrow Our way of Life and make us all learn the Cyrillic alphabet. You'd think people would know better by now. jk! ! s<BR><BR><B><I>Nathan Newman <nathanne@nathannewman.org></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Well, to get the facts correct-- the coexistence language was abandoned after Browder until Krushchev and it was that period that coincided with the height of McCarthyism.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And the folks being imprisoned in Cuba are themselves officially committed to working within the Cuban system and changing things politically.  Most are associated with the grassroots Varela petition project.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So again, there is no condition in that regard that is really different about the CPUSA in the early 1950s and the Cuban dissidents presently being jailed in Cuba.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>-- Nathan Newman</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=andie_nachgeborenen@yahoo.com href="mailto:andie_nachgeborenen@yahoo.com">andie nachgeborenen</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org href="mailto:lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org">lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 15, 2003 3:10 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [lbo-talk] Cuba petition</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Actually, oddicially, the USSR had abandoned the goal of ovethrowing the US system under Khrushchev. The watchword was "peaceful coexistence." The CPUSA was (whatever some its members may have privately hoped) officially committed to peaceful change through electoral means (Practically speaking it was (since 1936 or so) and is entirely under the wing of the Democratic Party.) You cold war liberals never get even the basic facts right.  jks<BR><BR><B><I>Luke Weiger <lweiger@umich.edu></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">> Officially, the Soviet Union was trying to overthrow the US system, which<BR>is<BR>> one reason they were funding the CPUSA. Everything people say seems to be<BR>> supporting McCarthy in his arguments.<BR>><BR>> -- Nathan Newman<BR><BR>The only difference is the likelihood that the government in question might<BR>be overthrown.<BR><BR>-- Luke<BR><BR>___________________________________<BR>http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P><BR> <HR SIZE=1> Do you Yahoo!?<BR><A href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/search/mailsig/*http://search.yahoo.com">The New Yahoo! Search</A> - Faster. Easier. Bingo.</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P><BR> <HR SIZE=1> Do you Yahoo!?<BR><A href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/search/mailsig/*http://search.yahoo.com">The New Yahoo! Search</A> - Faster. Easier. Bingo.</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P><BR> <HR SIZE=1> Do you Yahoo!?<BR><A href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/search/mailsig/*http://search.yahoo.com">The New Yahoo! Search</A> - Faster. Easier. Bingo.</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>