<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Mensagem original-----<BR><B>De:</B> lbo-talk-admin@lbo-talk.org [mailto:lbo-talk-admin@lbo-talk.org]<B>Em nome de </B>andie nachgeborenen<BR><B>Enviada em:</B> domingo, 20 de abril de 2003 23:18<BR><B>Para:</B> lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org<BR><B>Assunto:</B> RE: [lbo-talk] Gulag query<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV>See also Mike Davis' Late Victorian Holocausts. However, recognize here (and in response to Carrol also) that it will be argued that it makes a big difference that the deaths, if foreseeable, were not intended; it was not the purpose of British laissaez faire capitalism to kill millions of people. <SPAN class=200564713-21042003> </SPAN>That was merely a byproduct. <BR><BR><SPAN class=200564713-21042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><FONT color=#000000>-The majority of Stalimist deaths weren愒 intentional too. There is evidence enough against the statement that the</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=200564713-21042003><FONT face=Arial size=2>-famine deaths in Ukarine were not planned, insted they were a result of a crop failure coupled with poor information.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=200564713-21042003><FONT face=Arial size=2>-The fact that the state procurement for grains in Ukraine by 1932 were the lowest in the 30愀 is a strong evidence </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=200564713-21042003><FONT face=Arial size=2>-against "provoked famine". If we consider only the intentional deaths, it is estimated that the overall killings for</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=200564713-21042003><FONT face=Arial size=2>-1921-53 are in the range of 3 million (still very high, but far from right wing estimates).</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=200564713-21042003></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=200564713-21042003> </SPAN>There are responses to this, of course, one could deny the distinction betweena cting and ommitting to act, one might say that lack of ill intent makes British imperialists better people than Stalinist apparatchiks, but does not redeem the system of British imperialism as opposed to Stalinist terror, etc. But the point is that the body count doesn't tell the whole story. And anyway, who said that British imperialism was OK? Except for . . . Karl Marx, who viewed it as progressive.<BR><SPAN class=200564713-21042003></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=200564713-21042003><FONT face=Arial size=2>-Good points. At least Stalinism resulted in economic growth and a dramatic increase in the educational level of </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=200564713-21042003><FONT face=Arial size=2>-Soviet people. British imperialism in India not only killed more people, but also resulted only in exploitation and</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=200564713-21042003><FONT face=Arial size=2>-economic stagnation for Indian people.</FONT> </SPAN><BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>