<DIV>Miles, we almost certainly cannot change people's mindss abour race with science education. For that we need a combination of a change in social relations and propaganda, underpinned by a common experience of cross-racial struggle agsint common enemies. (Of course one might say atht the education provided by that struggle is practical or applied science.) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But Charles' point was quite different. It concerned how we know the truth about races, namely that they're not a biological reality. This is a different question from how certain people feel about race or anything else. Scientific justification is an objective notion, not a subjective feeling of great confidence. There may be nonscientific kinds of knowledge -- but not with respect to a biological question. The only acceptable answer to the questions, Do races have biological reality?, is a scientific one. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>jks<BR><BR><B><I>BrownBingb@aol.com</I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><BR>From: Miles Jackson <cqmv@pdx.edu><BR><BR><BR>> > CB: Yes, but,  but for the scientific refutations, how would we know that<BR>> > race is an invalid biological concept ?<BR>><BR><BR>There are many bases for the certainty of claims; science is only<BR>one of those bases, even in an industrialized society like the U.S.<BR>There is absolutely no scientific evidence that supports the<BR>claim that angels exist, but about 75% of adults in our society<BR>are certain they exist!  Tradition, family, mass media, peer<BR>pressure all play significant roles in the social production<BR>of certainties like (for many Americans) race, homosexuality,<BR>and angels (to cite a strange trilogy).<BR><BR>All I'm saying is this: there are many ways to skin the<BR>ideological cat.  Science is one possible tool.  But as the<BR>example of angels demonstrates, people can believe anything<BR>with certainty, as long as the idea is represented as an<BR>obvious certainty in a network of ongoing social relations.<BR>--And so with racial categories or the lack thereof.<BR><BR>Miles</FONT><FONT lang=0 style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">^^^^^^^^<BR>CB: Actually , I am not disagreeing with you that scientific arguments are not _sufficient_ to dissuade many people from racist thinking.  I am disagreeing with you that scientific arguments are not _necessary_ for winning the overall battle.  As it turns out I use "necessary" and "sufficient"  in the strict logical sense here.  Scientific refutations are necessary but not enough in themselves. <BR><BR>More specifically , I am thinking that a core group of anti-racists in the overall struggle against racism are Marxists and other leftists who do accept science as a privileged method for truth and certainty finding and belief formation. In other words, I am not saying that biological arguments are the only way to skin the ideological cat on racism. However , they are a critical way for those with a materalist world outlook, and those with a materialist or scientific world outlook are an important minority sector of the potential anti-racist majority. Those with a materialist world outlook are not confined to making only biological arguments, but can use several methods in combination in efforts to persuade others.  <BR><BR>Of course, the groups who are victims of racism don't need to be persuaded much. So, they constitute another core group.</FONT><FONT lang=0 style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><BR><BR><BR></DIV></FONT> <BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><p><hr SIZE=1> Do you Yahoo!?<br> <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/search/mailsig/*http://search.yahoo.com">The New Yahoo! Search</a> - Faster. Easier. Bingo.