<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1276" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color=#000080 size=2>there's a difference between talking up someone and quoting him, michael.  i'm not talking up taft.  he's mr conservative of his day.  the trent lott of the early 20th century.  the goldwater before barry goldwater.  what i'm pointing out is that Mr Far Right approved of criticizing the govt during time of war; something the democrats today had a hard time doing until someone slipped their leashes a notch or two a few months ago.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color=#000080 size=2>as for WW II, i'd agree with howard zinn.  WW II could have, and should have, been prevented.  rather than "talk up" WW II, to use your phrase, i'd prefer to approach it from zinn's perspective.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color=#000080 size=2>WW I was one of several causative factors of WW II.  and racist, anti leftist, warmongering, democrat Woodrow Wilson, with his nonsense about making the world safe for democracy while he did all in his power to destroy it in the USA, is a role model for and antecedent of shrub, ashcroft, et al.  in the finest american tradition, collectively congress backed him.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color=#000080 size=2>you're right: we don't have suppression like that today.  there's nothing to suppress.  where are eugene debs, the wobblies, an anti-war movement that's against all US wars including those in columbia, the philippines, et al, when we need them?  the american people are on a long vacation, still believing ronald reagan was right when he told them not to worry because things would all take care of themselves.   </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color=#000080 size=2>also, the kind of suppression you're alluding to isn't necessary due to the world's largest, most powerful, most effective propaganda machine.  and the most indifferent, passive, depressed, cowardly, uninformed, self centered, unmotivated electorate in the western world.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color=#000080 size=2>but rest assured, should what the founding fathers term the "beast" awaken, suppression equaling, and likely exceeding, anything seen during WW I, WW II and after, will meet it with both barrels.  don't for a moment think the right wing, and its middle road fellow travelers, haven't thought of the possibility, aren't ready for it, and aren't looking forward to it with relish.  nothing would more firmly embed shrub, and people like him, in the american fabric than something domestic and challenging to suppress.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color=#000080 size=2></FONT><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color=#000080 size=2>between you and me and the list, i'm not an absolutist about anything except absolutism.   it's too much like not thinking.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color=#000080 size=2></FONT><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color=#000080 size=2>R</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color=#000080 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mdawson@pdx.edu href="mailto:mdawson@pdx.edu">Michael Dawson</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org href="mailto:lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org">lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:00 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [lbo-talk] taft</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>Zzzzz...  You're trying to talk up somebody who criticized WWII?  Hell,<BR>that's one of two modern wars I would have signed up for.  What a truly bad<BR>and inept reference.<BR><BR>I'm an absolutist about the First Amendment, but the left is mostly blowing<BR>smoke out its ass about repression in this war.  We are not being<BR>suppressed.  You want suppression?  Check out resisters to WWI.<BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "R" <<A href="mailto:rhisiart@charter.net">rhisiart@charter.net</A>><BR>To: "LBO-Talk" <<A href="mailto:lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org">lbo-talk@lbo-talk.org</A>><BR>Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 8:45 PM<BR>Subject: [lbo-talk] taft<BR><BR><BR>> from no less a pinko leftie than Robert Taft.  my how US politics has<BR>> changed.<BR>><BR>> R<BR>><BR>> Robert Taft, December 19, 1941, in Chicago:<BR>><BR>> As a matter of general principle, I believe there can be no doubt that<BR>> criticism in time of war is essential to the maintenance of any kind of<BR>> democratic government. Perhaps nothing today distinguishes democratic<BR>> government in England so greatly from the totalitarianism of Germany as<BR>the<BR>> freedom of criticism which has existed continuously in the House of<BR>Commons<BR>> and elsewhere in England. Of course that criticism should not give any<BR>> information to the enemy. But too many people desire to suppress criticism<BR>> simply because they think that it will give some comfort to the enemy to<BR>> know that there is such criticism. If that comfort makes the enemy feel<BR>> better for a few moments, they are welcome to it as far as I am concerned,<BR>> because the maintenance of the right of criticism in the long run will do<BR>> the country maintaining it a great deal more good than it will do the<BR>enemy,<BR>> and will prevent mistakes which might otherwise occur.<BR>><BR>> Source: The Papers of Robert Taft (Kent, 1997), p. 303.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> _____________________________<BR>><BR>> Quis custodiet istos custodes?<BR>>    "Who will watch the watchers?" ~ "Who is to guard [us from] the guards<BR>> themselves?"<BR>>    -- Juvenal's Satires, VI. 347, circa 110 AD<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> ___________________________________<BR>> <A href="http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk">http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk</A><BR><BR><BR>___________________________________<BR><A href="http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk">http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>