>>This list is filled with people whom I may occasionally disagree with
>>over some issues but whose opinions I generally value as they are about
>>as progressive as one can be and still be grounded so I'd like to pose a
>>question before I do something hateful and rash. Does the phrase "You
>>speak with forked tongue" when directed at someone of known Native
>>American ancestry seem like a very inappropriate racially offensive
>>phrase? Since Kelley and I disagreed one time over the use of the term
>>redneck I'd be especially interested in your opinion but I'd like several
>>people to comment if they don't mind. Thanks.
>>
>>John Thornton
>
>Well, it depends on the context. I think it's probably best not to lecture
>or scold anyone about language use if it doesn't otherwise appear that
>they are being racist. And probably not a good idea to scold anyone about
>racist/sexist/classist this, that, or the other. Not many of us enjoy
>being scolded and its probably not especially effective in getting the
>point across. So, unless there's a good reason to be hateful, don't.
>
>On another list, a guy just (very) mildly scolded people about using the
>term Native American instead of American Indians or Indians (for short).
>Much to his chagrin, he learned that one posters husband is a lawyer who
>specializes in American Indian issues. As she said, "Regarding Native
>American/Indian, my DH, who works with Indians on a daily basis, says most
>of them prefer Indian, and use it themselves.
>"Native American" is what people from Washington - who mean well but don't
>know anything - say." The other guy's avocation is studying American
>Indian culture and he agreed, though he said he also knew a few folks who
>preferred NAtive American.
>
>Moral of the story: best not to be hateful.
>
>The person who used the phrase may not have a clue. Until I googled it, I
>had no idea that it is a phrase uttered by American Indians in B Westerns
>but not a phrase found among any AI tribes. Not a big Western movie fan.
>IF, as Michael said, he was saying it without the "a" then I would say the
>person may be mocking language use. But again, is it really useful to be
>hateful about it? What do you get out of it if you are hateful about it?
>(Not that I think you would actually be so -- I suspect you'd be a lot
>more cautious and caring than your words, above, indicate.)
>
>
>kelley
The phrase was used without the "a" which makes a surprising difference. The phrase was also the opening phrase in a post directed to me. I am Native American and the person knew it. I grew up for part of my childhood just outside a reservation but knew many kids there and a part of that community to a degree. I went to a juvenile detention center for a short time for smashing a glass in a kids face for mocking my sisters refusal to go out with him saying "Squaw speak with forked tongue" meaning she was saying no but meant yes or some such BS. I have been called "Chief" more time than I could possibly recall. I feel that I tend to overreact to phrases like that but I also feel that I am somewhat justified in doing it so I never completely resolve that conflict internally. If I felt the phrase was used by someone who included the "a" so as to avoid the obvious connotation and with no knowledge of the person it was directed to being Native American it wouldn't bother me much. That is not my perception of the event however I could be mistaken. I guess what bothers me is that if in a reply to an African-American someone who disagreed with that persons post replied with a line from Amos and Andy like "You fo shur wrong 'bout dat masser Johnson" no one on a list like this would hesitate to consider than a serious breach of standards so why is it different for Native American stereotypes? Indians is certainly easier and I don't personally know anyone who prefers to be referred to as Native American except by white people. Indians all call each other Indian and some use the term Chief in a respectful way to elder members of their extended family. For an anglo to call an Indian Chief is insulting. The whole thing is way more fucking complicated than it needs to be. I use Native American when I write but almost never when I speak. It just seems natural that way. I probably have a bit of a chip on my shoulder that I have been unable to completely eliminate no matter how hard I try. My family has an anglo side and my father made a huge effort to integrate the family into that stream. He felt it would increase his childrens chance for success and he was correct. I got to go to a private school for several years and take ballroom dance lessons and fencing lessons and language lessons. Stuff kids from the "wrong" sorts of families don't get to do. But we were still outsiders and this of course made us aliens in either cultural setting. I was always ashamed of my Native American heritage until I was about 14 or 15. At one of the family get togethers in upstate NY for the holidays I overheard one of the anglo family members refer to my father as "that little Indian bastard" and I literally wanted to kill him. It made me realize that even if I stayed with the successful white clan I would always be looked down on so I jumped ship when I finished High School. That was a mistake because it's almost always easier to work for change from the inside. Anyway I'm probably being overly sensitive to any perceived slight to anyone based on race because of background stuff I can't shake totally. I already told the poster I felt it was offensive but did so without ripping into her in anger. She hasn't replied so it's probably best to let it die. Sorry to be so long.
John Thornton