[lbo-talk] The Occupation/WWII

Paul paul_ at igc.org
Wed Dec 22 10:31:10 PST 2004


[I know this is a tangent but...]

Even in the highly ideological world of the history of WWII in Eastern Europe, I don't think you will find much support for your overall point that there were large scale defections by 'actual' *Soviet* people, Stalin not withstanding. At most, a few Ukrainian-nationalist historians claim that *Soviet* ethnic Ukrainians would have defected had Hitler not treated the Ukrainian nationalist movement (Stephan Bandera et. al) in such a racist manner.

This record is often mixed in with peoples NOT part of the Soviet Union in 1939 and pressed into the Soviet Army after being occupied by the Soviets in 1939-41 under the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact - this group does have some significant defectors. This includes ethnic Ukrainians from what was Poland in 1939 (E. Galicia) and is now Western Ukraine (yes, the Western Ukraine of today's elections!); it also includes the well known Estonian divisions that did defect, the infamous Lithuanian SS, etc. However the lesson here for Iraq does not support your point: rather it shows only that people recently occupied by foreigners make for unreliable soldiers in support of those occupiers.

[BTW, I don't think one would want to cite the 'Hiwi s' (literally 'volunteer help', more like auxiliaries) as 'defectors', since they were pressed into service from Nazi POW/Concentration Camps where most of those who didn't 'volunteer' died cruelly. It says a lot about concentration camps and not much about the success or failure of Soviet policy. Also the Hiwi actual numbers (never significant militarily) is a matter of some dispute (Bevor's popular book notwithstanding), whatever proportion were 'actual' Soviets.]

Paul

Bryan writes:


>>Many nations that have been invaded over the years kill their traitors.
>>Innocents are killed and maimed...and scorched earth? What of it?
>>It was one of the factors that broke the Nazi backbone in WWII Russia.
>
>Ummmm....
>
>well actually, I would beg to differ with this assessment of the Russian
>success in WWII, I think that the evidence is highly ambiguous as to
>whether their policies contributed to, or hampered their success against
>the Axis armies.
>
>Russian and Ukrainian desertions to the Axis army were rampant.
>
>And the Soviet policy of considering you a traitor even if you were taken
>prisoner made it almost impossible for people to return to fight on the
>Soviet side...if they had the possibility to escape back.
>
>By the end of the battles of Stalingrad, a significant portion of the
>'German' armies were Russian and Ukrainian 'Hiwis'. For instance, 780
>Russians, nearly half the force of the Wehrmacht's 297th infantry division
>in the southern tip of the 'Kessel' fought against the Soviet military.
>(p.353 "Stalingrad" Antony Beevor).
>
>They knew that even if they were prisoners, they would be shot as traitors
>by the Russians for even being alive and caught inside the Kessel.
>
>Does that sound like these were the factors that broke the Nazi backbone
>in WWII...sounds kinda like it was calcium for the backbone of the Nazis
>to me...



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