Now, Michael, read carefully. I never said that creators merely channel pre-existing gifts. I did say it was impossible to explain how what they contribute gives them an ownership entitlement to it.
When I say even the contributions of genius depend on cooperative labor, I am making an elementary (and incidentally feminist) point. Someone did Newton's laundry, cooked his meals, indeed, published his work and confirmed his theories. That does not denigrate his transcendent genius. It does raise questions about his "ownership" of any fruits of ideas. Fortunately he was only interested in credit.
I don't take "liberal" as an insult. I'm one myself.
Marx expressly and unequivocally rejects the LTOP. I gave you the cite. look it up. He's right to do so: the theory makes no sense. Even its strongest defenders, Locke and Nozick, admit that it can't be justified.
Nozick, for example, faces the question, why, if I pour a can of orange jhuice into the sea, mixing my labor with it, have I not lost my organge juice rather than gained the sea. He has no answer.
jks
jks
--- Michael Dawson <MDawson at pdx.edu> wrote:
> Wrong and wrong. I never said playwrights or
> anybody else creates in
> isolation. I said they create. You replied by
> denying that, saying that
> all work is merely channeling of pre-existing gifts.
> Poppycock.
>
> Individuals add nuance to past achievements, but
> nuance is often the basis
> for huge leaps forward in human welfare. This is
> only philosophically
> difficult if you insist on treating it as so.
>
> And, again, where did I ever say anything about
> market prices, etc.? You
> and your fellow individual-deniers slapped me with
> the charge that because I
> advocate an LTOP, I must be a backdoor liberal.
> That your mental blockage,
> not mine. I'm a Marxist on this question. LTOV and
> LTOP are bedrock to
> philosophy and social science, as Marx himself
> understood. Their meaning is
> well-explained by Robert Meister. They are
> categories of moral accounting.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org
> [mailto:lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org]
> > On Behalf Of andie nachgeborenen
> > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 10:01 AM
> > To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> > Subject: RE: [lbo-talk] Re: plagarism watch
> >
> >
> > Since we're grading, you'd get a D in the
> philosophy
> > class I used to teach. You don't respond to
> criticism.
> > You just repeat. That's not persuasive.
> >
> > Of course playwrites deserve to be paid. The
> question
> > is why. The idea that they create stuff all by
> > themselves is not a plausible explanation. No one
> > creates stuff all by himself, except Robinson
> Crusoe.
> > who doesn't need to be paid.
> >
> > Nor am I denying the existence of individual
> > creativity or genius. I am just challenging you to
> > explain why whatever it is an individual adds "by
> > himself" -- insofar as that notion makes sense --
> > entitles him to, for example, the market price, or
> to
> > any particular remuneration for his work. Or how
> much
> > it entitles him too. As noted, there are hard
> > questions to be asked about whether work that is
> > harder to do or takes longer or req
> >
> > --- Michael Dawson <MDawson at pdx.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Hey Brian, these guys are denying that
> individual
> > > work exists. Standing on
> > > the shoulders of giants is surely half the story
> of
> > > genius. So is
> > > individual alteration of previous inheritances,
> > > which we all receive as a
> > > gift from our ancestors.
> > >
> > > It's amazing to watch these guys who think
> they're
> > > ultra-cutting-edge excise
> > > the individual from the world. I'd give their
> > > arguments a "C+" in my intro
> > > to sociology class. No society; no individuals.
> No
> > > individuals, no society
> > > or conscious social change.
> > >
> > > Don't let them fluster you. Your playwright
> > > deserves to get paid, if his
> > > play proves worthy.
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org
> > > [mailto:lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org]
> > > > On Behalf Of Brian Charles Dauth
> > > > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 4:48 AM
> > > > To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> > > > Subject: [lbo-talk] Re: plagarism watch
> > > >
> > > > Dear List:
> > > >
> > > > Justin writes:
> > > >
> > > > > But there are a bunch of problems. He's not
> > > doing
> > > > it alone.
> > > >
> > > > Well, I haven't seen anyone else in our
> apartment
> > > typing
> > > > with him. LOL.
> > > >
> > > > > How much is his contribution and to what and
> how
> > > much
> > > > does that (morally) entitle him?
> > > >
> > > > I do not know. That is why I was asking.
> > > >
> > > > > Suppose writing the play is a breeze for
> him.
> > > Has he contributed
> > > > less than if it were an agony?
> > > >
> > > > No. Why should that matter?
> > > >
> > > > > Does it matter how much time he takes
> writing
> > > it?\\
> > > >
> > > > No. A work of art takes the time it takes.
> > > >
> > > > > Also, even if he has a right to the product
> of
> > > "his" labors,
> > > > it doesn't follow that he has a right to the
> fruit
> > > of that product,
> > > > e.g., the profit, if any, from selling it in
> the
> > > market.
> > > >
> > > > Why? Isn't part of the struggle getting
> workers
> > > the right to
> > > > the fruit of their labors?
> > > >
> > > > > Plagiarism is conscious copying.
> > > >
> > > > Okay. Got it.
> > > >
> > > > > Btw, I don't think there are a finite # of
> ways
> > > to look at
> > > > Hitchcock or any great artist.
> > > >
> > > > I think we are finite creatures in a finite
> > > universe. I do not believe
> > > > that the finite can give rise to the infinite.
> I
> > > think the bigger problem
> > > > is that capitalist culture puts apremium on
> > > originality instead of
> > > > usefulness.
> > > > I think it is much healthier to be pragmatic
> > > (didn't James say pragmatism
> > > > was just a new name for old ways of thinking?)
> > > than original. An
> > > > emphasis on usefulness also cuts down on the
> cult
> > > of self.
> > > >
> > > > Brian Dauth
> > > > Queer Buddhist Resister
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ___________________________________
> > > >
> > >
> >
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