[lbo-talk] Missing the Marx

[andie nachgeborenen]

Everybody chill. There is nothing "obvious" about
anything in Marxism. Marx' attitude towards morality
is "obviously" complex. Officially he classes it with
ideology as opposed to science. He is contemptuous of
merely moral appeals. His official position is at best
relativist. In practice he is loaded with moral
language. And the project makes no sense unless you
think that exploitation and oppression are wrong.
Though Richard Miller has argued manfully that you can
have Marx without morality and without merely reducing
the conflict to opposing interests, as Charles
suggests. Allen Wood kind of agrees with this view
too. Or did, I have not read the new edition of his
book. So, anyone starting any sentence with "Obviously
Marxism is/says/means . . ." whatever you fill the
blank you will be wrong. Even if your interpretation
is right it will not be _obviously_ right. Except for
my interpretations of course. ;->

--- Louis Kontos <Louis.Kontos at liu.edu> wrote:


> Obviously Marxism has nothing to do with 'ethical
> analysis'. What Dawson is talking about is not
> 'Marxism 101' -- he should learn to read Marx.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org on behalf of
> Michael Dawson
> Sent: Wed 12/29/2004 4:12 PM
> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> Subject: RE: [lbo-talk] Missing the Marx
>  
> Carrol, you are an asshole.  For one thing, don't
> lecture me about
> comprehension.  You either don't understand Karl
> Marx's explanation of
> exploitation, or you merely pretended you don't so
> you could find yourself
> on your preferred side of the argument.  I suspect
> and hope for your sake
> it's the latter.  I suppose it's better to be
> scurrilous than dense.
> 
> Meanwhile, let me clarify for you:  You (and maybe
> Justin) think
> exploitation exists, but that it has nothing to do
> with ethics or ethical
> analysis.  I think it exists as a provable fact, and
> that it is also
> thoroughly about ethics.  I claim Marx saw it my
> way, that his purpose was
> to focus ethical analysis on the heart of the
> matter.  You claim he saw it
> your way, which was to jettison ethical analysis
> altogether.
> 
> I find your position to be dunderheaded at best, and
> Stalinist and/or
> bourgeois at worst.  It's a case of throwing out the
> baby to spite the
> bathwater.  Exploitation is as ethically charged as
> it is real.  Anybody who
> denies that is not a Marxist in precisely the sense
> KM used that phrase.
> 
> This is Marxism 101.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org
> [mailto:lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org]
> > On Behalf Of Carrol Cox
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 11:12 AM
> > To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> > Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Missing the Marx
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Michael Dawson wrote:
> > >
> > > Well, the argument was not really over whether
> wages and profits are
> > legally
> > > correct under capitalism.  Nobody disputes that.
>  The argument was over
> > > whether paying wages for work-time while
> capitalists keep the surpluses
> > > created by wage laborers is exploitation.  In
> other words, whether
> > > capitalist property is stolen and unethical.
> > 
> > 
> > Sigh.
> > 
> > Yes, it is exploitative -- and the object of the
> workers' movement is to
> > overturn this exploitative CMP.
> > 
> > No, it is NOT "stolen and unethical."
> > 
> > Can't you even state with minimal accuracy what
> Justin & I are saying.
> > If you can't read us accurately, why should you
> expect us to take
> > seriously your reading of anyone else?
> > 
> > Carrol
> > 
> > ___________________________________
> >
>
http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
> 
> ___________________________________
>
http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
>  
> 


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