On 11 Jan 2004 16:05:02 -0500 Travis Fast <tfast at yorku.ca> writes:
> On Sun, 2004-01-11 at 14:52, Jim Farmelant wrote:
> > On 11 Jan 2004 14:07:30 -0500 Travis Fast <tfast at yorku.ca> writes:
> > > On Sun, 2004-01-11 at 13:31, Dennis Perrin wrote:
> > > > > What that shows is that Benny Morris is at heart a rather
> old
> > > > > fashion Labor Zionist. Years ago, it was not uncommon
> > > > > for Labor Zionists, at least privately, to justify their
> > > treatment of
> > > > > the
> > > > > Palestinians, in language similar to Morris's. Israel was
> > > > > said to represent a a more advanced social formation
> > > > > (i.e. a socialist democracy) which therefore had the
> > > > > right to to use whatever means necessary for prevailing
> > > > > over the less advanced , reactionary social formations like
> the
> > > > > feudal monarchies of the Arab states.
> > > >
> > > > > Jim F.
> > > >
> > > > How in essence is this different from what the Bolshies did to
>
> > > peasants and
> > > > workers who didn't agree with them? Weren't they guided by
> > > Superior Theory
> > > > and Logic (as well as having Dame History on the arm),
> something
> > > that the
> > > > backward, reactionary peasant class could only comprehend at
> > > gunpoint? Or
> > > > are certain types of political elitism *truly* in the
> interests of
> > > humanity
> > > > as a whole?
> > > >
> > > > DP
> > > >
> > >
> > > Interesting how a a thread that began with a discussion of Benny
> > > Morris's unapologetic Zionist nationalism has turned into a
> forum
> > > for
> > > everyone to purge and pillage the left of and for its past sins.
> >
> > I think that is because Morris does come out of a political
> > tradition, Labor Zionism, which has always regarded itself
> > as being left-wing. And the fact is, there is considerable
> > precedent within socialist history, for the type of reasoning
> > that Morris invokes for justifying Israeli treatment of the
> > Palestinians. The fact is that there is an element of
> > social Darwinist type thinking within the socialist
> > and Marxist traditions (which in part stems
> > from the fact that peole like Kautsky and Plekhanov
> > had been disciples of Darwin and Spencer before
> > their becoming Marxists).
> >
> > And since DP has cited the Boshies for us, it is interesting
> > to note that back in the 1930s and 1940s, the Labor
> > Zionists were debating the merits of the "transfer" of
> > Palestinian Arabs, some of them cited the example
> > of Comrade Stalin's "transfer" of the Crimean Tartars
> > in order to justify the "progressiveness: of such a
> > policy. For that matter, David Ben Gurion back in
> > the 1920s and 1930s was in the habit of invoking
> > the names of Comrade Lenin and Comrade Stalin
> > in public speeches.
>
> Sure, and the same forms of legitimation can be seen in the rhetoric
> legitimizing colonization. That is the point. Regardless of the
> rhetorical cover being invoked these are very different political
> projects and problems. That is, the Bolshevik attack on some
> peasants
> and workers was not about legitimating the expansion of colonial
> rule it
> was rather about consolidating the "revolution".
I would certainly agree with that. Having said, it still remains the case that within the socialist tradition there have existed social Darwinist type rhetorical troupes that lent themselves to the defense of imperialism and colonialism. Most of the socialists of the Second International were nominally anti-imperialist but when push came to shove in 1914 most of them opted to come out in defence of "their" countries. Furthermore, there were people like Eduard Bernstein who explicitly defended colonialism as "progressive."
Also, while our esteemed moderator does care overly much for Proyect, Proyect's piece was useful IMO in pointing out how Marxists have used these sorts of rhetorical troupes to rationalize the subjugation of aboriginal peoples. And those sorts of troupes are very much like the ones that Benny Morris relies upon.
> The rhetorical
> troupes
> used to legitimate it by particular actors is beside the point. Had
> social Darwinism not existed other rhetorical troupes would have
> been
> found to draw upon.
No doubt. Revisionist Zionists have relied upon somewhat different rhetorical troupes than the sorts invoked by Labor Zionists. But for the moment I am concerned with discussing the Labor Zionists, since they have long attempted to rationalize the subjugation of the Palestinians in terms of progressive and even socialist rhetoric. No one is very shocked when a Likudnik says the sorts of things about Palestinians that Morris says, but Morris is not a Likudnik but a Labor Zionist and indeed back in the 1990s, Morris was often called a "post-Zionist," so a lot of people seem to have been taken aback by Morris' comments, although he has been saying these sorts of things for some time now. Anfd it was my point that they should not have been so surprised by this.
> Morris was first and foremost a Zionist
> nationalist
> and socialism, as for many who were drawn to labour, seemed to
> articulate the right social structure for a Jewish state. Part of
> the
> slide in the power of labour in Israel, I would argue, has to do
> with
> the defection of a chunk of its supporters from socialism but not
> from
> Zionist nationalism as socialism became viewed as no longer the
> appropriate (practicable) form of social relations for a
> contemporary
> Jewish state.
I would certainly agree with that. The current PM of Israel,
Ariel Sharon, after all came from a Labor Zionist background
but eventually ended up as a Likud politician.
>
> Travis
>
>
> > > I wonder if I started with an observation about Stalin's
> paranoia
> > > and
> > > insularity if we would pull the thread all the way to the Bush
> white
> > > house in the space of three posts.
> > >
> > > In any case it would be an equally absurd equivocation.
> > >
> > > Travis
> > >
> > >
> > > >
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