i wonder how many men, since you start there, manage to gain the wealth they needed to return to their home countries and what percentage don't, having to stay here or keep traveling. the excuse of "political oppression" in their former countries does seem to operate a an excellent fact saving device for them. yet, is everyone who comes to the US expected to return to their native land a major, wealthy success?
it's interesting that the US provides so much freedom for women despite our native women believing otherwise until they spend a little time abroad. i recall the shock my niece got when she spent time with a college friend in Dubai -- the difference is remarkable. can't blame the ladies for not wanting to go back to that restricted life -- although i hear some prefer it, like the structure they are used to. patriarchal societies are deeply embedded in other cultures.
i do think we overlap in a couple of spots. i've seen the same transformation of people committed to authoritarian regimes -- like the communism you mention -- adjust nicely to its authoritarian equivalent in the USA, the republicans, who also require obedience to dogma rather than independent thought. "sense making" is an interesting explanation. i would say that people used to an authoritarian system, be it political or religious, in their persona lives, adapt and often hunger an authoritarian systems which provide the same sense of security. I'd say this is an emotional, psychological phenomena more than a rational phenomenon like "sense making." an overtly rational appearance disguises the true nature of the process in our "scientific" culture values.
i see this process more as an emotional, possibly unconscious one rather than cognitive. cognitive approaches give nice "rationales" for what are basically emotionally rooted processes. and are not too sophisticated at explaining who one "rational" direction was taken instead of another. when the choice was actually make by the person's deeper, inner emotional makeup.
such people are drawn to highly authoritarian systems. lord bertrand russell observed circa the time of WWII, nazism was often strongest in areas where the catholic church has its most authoritarian history. there surely were other social factors involved, but the pattern of italia, austria, germany, spain, portugal, parts of ireland, the divisive struggle in france, and so forth gives some merit to Russell's point.
in the united states, it's easy to see how areas highly exposed to authoritarian religious teachings such as the bible belt always tend to be the most right wind, conservative, traditional, fundamentalist, authoritarian areas of the country. authoritarianism breeds. and where one kind falls off, another readily springs up to take its place. this is quite noticeable with american immigrants who have been prescreen for their political values by the US govt, as well as other things, and must be insecure at some left just being so far away from everything they know and love about "home."
R
----- Original Message ----- From: "Wojtek Sokolowski" <sokol at jhu.edu> To: <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org> Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 6:50 AM Subject: RE: [lbo-talk] This is WAR, sons!
: R:
: > the few eastern europeans and russians i know seem more relaxed but
: equally
: > uncomfortable with the idea of going back. also, some of this group
: retain
: > a great deal of paranoia about "communism." they fail to see that the
: > "communism" they lived under wasn't communism but kind of national
: facade
: > being manipulated by a psychopathic dictator and his buddies. they
: are
: > almost totally unable to understand america's unique brand of fascism.
: and,
: > in fact, don't factor fascism into their thinking at all, either the
: euro
: > variety or ours. they often seem to have exchanged one form of dogma
: in
: > their previous lives for another one, both equally unrealistic and
: equally
: > pointless.
: >
:
: Based on my own experience, I think this is over-generalization that is
: mostly false. Most Eastern European immigrants are not political but
: economic - they come here to strike it rich and babble anti-communist
: mantras because these are the magic words that get them their I-94s and
: green cards. Most of them plan to stay here for a few years, make a
: boat load of money and come back as rich and respected men. I use the
: word men deliberately, because women have a somewhat different
: experience (more about it in a moment).
:
: The virulent anti-communism many of them develop is result of several
: factors. First immigrant communities are often already reactionary, so
: the stuff is already in the air. But more importantly, many of those
: fellows left quite comfortable lives behind, jobs, houses, farms etc.
: which they gave up with immigration. So if their dream of the American
: riches does not come true, and they end cleaning toilets or flipping
: burgers at minimum wages - they cannot go back because they would loose
: status and respect of their former neighbors - for they would come
: defeated. Virulent anti-communism saves their faces - they may be
: cleaning toilets here but they will not go back, they say, because of
: "political oppression" which btw they never experienced. But after
: telling that story many times, they actually believe it.
:
: Women, however, are often an exception. They genuinely want to stay
: here even doing menial jobs because they genuinely fear repression if
: they return. Not political, though, but social. EE tends to be fairly
: patriarchal, especially outside major urban centers. If these women
: returned, they would have to give a lot of freedoms that here are taken
: for granted: freedom to dress any way they want, freedom to spend their
: own money and time any way they want, freedom not be married and sleep
: with whoever they want, or freedom to call the cops on their abusive
: husbands. Although this changed quite considerably during the past
: 30-50 years , mainly as a result of socialist policies, this patriarchal
: crap is deeply ingrained in EE social fabric and right now is being dug
: up by fascist and clerical elements as a reaction to socialism.
:
: Another important aspect is that immigration offers a very interesting
: experiment that reveals something about the nature of political and
: ideological preferences. Often ardent supported of the communist
: regimes in EE, ex-party apparatchiks etc, become ardent supporters of
: GOP and right wing here. My explanation of that "switch" is that
: political ideology is not a matter of rational choice but a cognitive
: process of "sense making." The cognitive process of sense making is
: organizing various experiences into meaningful wholes (there is a ton of
: literature on that under the rubric of cognitive psychology and
: sociology), or creating order in the chaos, if you will. Cognitive
: psychologists talk about two different styles in so doing - one is the
: rigid adherence to the conventional norms of the society and the status
: quo, the other one based on a flexible application of principles.
:
: People who have a natural inclination toward the first cognitive style
: will adhere to whatever conventional norms and political structures
: surround them - they are devout communists under the Soviet regime,
: ardent GOPniks in the US, staunch Afrikaners in the apartheid South
: Africa - in a word, pro-establishment in any country or society in
: which they find themselves. Again, this has nothing to do with their
: status as immigrants but with their natural cognitive predisposition -
: immigration merely reveal their chameleon-like ability to blend in with
: the status quo.
:
: Wojtek
:
:
:
:
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