[lbo-talk] Protection of Chinese language urged

suzume at mx82.tiki.ne.jp suzume at mx82.tiki.ne.jp
Fri Jun 4 21:37:27 PDT 2004



>> can your attempt at putting english at the center of all things
>> efficient be a reflection of your monolingualism ? it seems to me the
>> only people who think english is
> A: I'm not monolingual.

Sorry, I did not intend to mean you were monolingual. I meant to suggest that monolingual english speakers tend to believe in the "english as the basic world language" myth more than the others.


> B: I'm not attempting to put English at the center of all things
> efficient. Like a lot of political people, you can't seem to
> distinguish between the two sentences "X is a fact" and "I am
> advocating X." I was trying to state what I thought to be a fact,
> which is that, as more and more connections are established between
> people throughout the world, some sort of general medium of linguistic
> exchange is needed, over and above translation and interpretation
> between various language pairs, and therefore such a medium is adopted
> in practice -- for historical reasons, not because it is "better" in
> some way or other, but just because it's the way the historical cookie
> has crumbled.

And my position is that more and more connections are established between people who _are_ in positions to establish such connections, by the fact that they are multilingual and concerned (ie. political). As for the "need" of a general medium i'd say it takes much less effort to translate Marx from german to any other language than to get the world population to learn German so that they can understand Marx. I know it is a little extreme case. But how much english education do you think is needed to read Naomi Klein ? Doug Henwood ? Negri and Hardt ? To participate to this list ? Do you think it is realistic to ask people to go that far when they can have access to this information in their own language if only a few of them have achieved that level of English (or if English speakers have achieved a similar level in their language) ? Besides, do you think having access to _any_ leftist pamphlet written in English can be considered a reasonable return on investment ?

What is the point of having everybody speak English at the Social Forums (for ex) if the aim of the Forum is to fight against capitalist globalization ? How can you expect local activists (in South America, in India, in China etc) to master enough of this "basic world language" so they can "exchange" with other local activists ?


> For example, Aljazeera feels a need to communicate with the world on
> the Web in a language besides Arabic, since Arabic is not understood
> by most of the outside world. So it puts up an English web site.
> That's all I'm talking about.

Which is good. and considering the local language market it is probably cheaper for them to publish in English than in Chinese (a lot of their reporters being ex BBC staff if I am not wrong). And the political market there (Israel supported by the US, most of the area being old British colonies, the US/British occupying Iraq, Allies of Saudi Arabia etc) makes it obvious that their target is not the _World_ but the American/British section of the world ie. a periphery.

You seem to mistake the side effect (that English speakers all over the world can read Al Jazeera pages) for the main goal (reach the American/British audience).


>> to get a grasp of the reality of any "anti-global" thing they'd
>> better start with a consciousness of "proximities" involving
>> korean/chinese/russian language teaching but that, the gvt does not
>> want it. because consciousness is political.
>
> I don't see that the Japanese government is attempting to forbid
> Japanese people from learning these languages.

I am talking about compulsory (primary school, J. high school) and senior high school education. And I did not say "forbid". Indeed foreign language education is not by law limited to English. But the reality is that all of compulsory education foreign language classes are English classes. There is no choice because the state does not offer a choice (or maybe in some elite school that number in the dozen in the whole country). Exams to enter HS are English exams, English exams are present in all university entry exams which is not the case for other languages (that you can start studying in HS at the earliest, and that's for a few elite schools in the country anyway).

Besides, foreign schools (Korean/Chinese etc) that offer a truly multilingual education (in addition to the standard education) were not, until very recently if I am not wrong, recognized the same status as "international" schools (who offer the same multilingual+standard education, in English or French...) the later being considered as equivalent to "japanese" schools. It means that student graduating from "international" schools are not considered as "foreign students" technically speaking. Graduates from what is called here "ethnic" schools _are_ (although most of the students are 2nd/3rd/4rth generation immigrants from colonial times)...

Attempts to organize exchanges with Korean/Chinese schools abroad in the countryside is sometimes barred by extreme right organization etc.

So, yes, there is a political will to refuse access to any kind of "geographical" (historical/political) consciousness through language education in Japan. And this is organized consciously, or not by the Ministry of Education.


> than with English-speaking people. But English is still the primary
> second language, because it is currently more useful than others.

Not useful in terms of "communication with English speakers", which would reflect some kind of real translinguistic necessity in Japan (which does not exist, or maybe with Korean/Chinese/Portuguese/Spanish/Tagalog if you consider the multicultural reality of migration to Japan). English education keeps it status because the whole educational system keeps it as a way to select pupils based on exam scores. Very much like German education is supposed to be good in France because German is (supposedly) harder than English. Pupils are thus first selected on what first foreign language they learn. The best classes being filled with German (1st language) English (2nd language) Classical Greek (Optional dead language) studying pupils. English (1st language) Spanish (2nd Language), no optional dead language studying pupils fill the lowest level classes. What has the "usefulness" you mention to do here ? Japan is no different.


> No doubt this primary second language status was reinforced by the
> American postwar occupation.

Sorry for being picky. English is _not_ a "second language" in Japan (Spanish _is_ a second language in the US). English is the only foreign language taught during compulsory education. And this has not been "reinforced" by the occupation, it is a result of the occupation since 1) before the war English was forbidden 2) German had a very similar status since Meiji (and French although far behind was the third).


> If China becomes the predominant economic center in Asia, and the
> predominant economic partner of Japan, Chinese might well take over
> this position from English, especially given the head start Japanese
> people have with the Chinese characters. But only the future will
> tell.

And the present can tell you that by the time Japanese realize they'd rather focus on studying asian languages for real (like with the idea of really using them for communication and not only for passing exams) Chinese and Korean people will have already monopolized the multilingual market.

As you say, Chinese characters being relatively similar between the two languages Japanese could actually have an advantage there, but the one who feel the necessity to communicate are Chinese, not Japanese (what is the ratio of Chinese students in Japan to Japanese student in China ?) Similarly for Koreans, grammar is so similar that it takes only a few months for Koreans (who share chinese characters in common with the Japanese although to a lesses extend) to use Japanese properly. But how many Japanese students realize this ? Right now, only 30% of households in Japan have children under 15. When China will become the biggest economic partner (in 10-20 years ?) how many people do you think will be still available to learn and communicate in Chinese ? Once the North Korean anomaly has disappeared, how long will it take for the Korean peninsula to become a major actor in the area ?

Japan is locked into a monolingual ideological pattern and English education is an excuse to lock Japanese people into the belief that "foreign languages are difficult". Definitely not the path to liberation that learning a new language is. The world starts at one's doorstep, and in Japan (and in a lot of other places on the planet) the language spoken on the other side of the doorstep is _not_ English. It is about time "locals" realize that.

JC



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