[lbo-talk] :: New Statesman - Saddam's very own party (UK SWPaligns w/ homophobe

[Todd Archer]

Thomas said:

>Todd, if this story was true, who shattered the unity?

Depends what "unity" we're talking about.  Was the demo there to demonstrate 
against Israeli occupation or, was it there to demonstrate against the 
oppression of gays by Palestinians?  In any event, it's hard to stay "on 
message" in something as diverse as a demo if people decide to jump in with 
their own placards.

How would you feel if, while demonstrating for something you believe in, 
someone else jumps in with a sign attacking, directly or indirectly, that 
very thing?  The Outrage group was targeting Palestine (rightly) in a 
supposedly pro-Palestinian demo.  Not cool for fellow lefties.

>Was it the people who voiced their anger over some
>part of the Palestian mvmt (notably Arafats, if we are
>to believe the story) that is killing homosexuals or
>the SWP/Muslim reactionaries who vilified them at the
>march?

See my comment above and figure it out.

>This problem has come up time and time again

Yes, and it will continue to come up, given the fractured and fractious 
nature of the "Left" in any country and given how these issues are spun in 
the real world of deal-making and compromise, especially if there are groups 
who don't seem to mind cutting in on other's turf or time, or who think only 
in terms of ideological purity.

>and I
>cant believe you Leninists keep pushing this line.

Great.  So now I'm a Leninist now.  What's next?  I'm a Stalinist?

Doug, where did you get your pic of Lenin?  Guess I have to put one up now.

>It should be clear from your beloved United Front
>Against Fascism that there is a need for independence
>and initiative within the United Front, if that is
>what you want to call it.

Independence and initiative aren't bad, so long as you're careful in how you 
apply it.

And I have little idea of this United Front Against Fascism you're 
blathering about.  Was that the WWII phenomenon, come from Stalin?  Thomas, 
that was over forty years ago!  All I'm asking for is refraining from 
stepping on toes as happened at that demo.

There are better ways it could've been handled by the Outrage group.

>Otherwise many different
>sections of the movement get suffocated, get told that
>their problem is not the main contradiction.

That is a political tactic.  If you ARE involved in that tactic, then the 
"head" should have the decency to outline EXACTLY what is expected of the 
rest of the movement, and the members should either do the best they can or 
leave the movement and carry on their own agenda outside it (barring 
changing the movement from within, given time and circumstance).

>From what I can gather, the groups that were there have alliances among 
themselves.  I doubt most would have welcomed the interference of 
"outsiders" whom many members of the demo wouldn't have supported anyway eg 
the MAB.

>So,
>palestinian homosexuals-or those who support their
>cause- should just shut up for the sake of
>unity...

IF they are members of some larger alliance trying to put forward a united 
face.  If they aren't, they shouldn't go crashing other's demos.

>even when they are getting tortured and
>shot. What kind of goddamn unity is that?  If that is
>unity then take it and stick it up your ass.

Thank you, Thomas: you've just given me a prime example of the infantile 
left.

Could the Outrage group have asked permission to join the demo?

Why did they join that particular demo when they did?

And you haven't answered my question.  How about doing that, so we can have 
a real talk.

Ian said:

>With so many contradictions on the planet why hierarchize the
>struggles?????

In principle, I can get behind that, but there had to have been a better way 
of presenting a less "jarring" picture in this particular instance.  They 
had something like that in Seattle.  I have little doubt the anarchists 
would have loved to disrupt any demos done by the "Stalinists".

And didn't this whole matter strike you as "two" groups, fighting each other 
to see who gets "top billing"?

>Complementarity is more interesting than negation........

Yes, and it should always be strived for by everyone involved to the best of 
their respective abilities and ideologies(not to mention the situation), but 
choices do have to be made, and sometimes some people will get or feel left 
out, I imagine.

Lenin said

>Tatchell's group were clearly trying to disrupt the demonstration by 
>implying that Palestinians oppress gays.

I think they were spot on about that.  Lots of states in the ME are actively 
hostile to homosexuality.  I'm pretty sure the "vision statement" of the PLO 
is, as a "good Muslim" group, anti-gay.

>The reaction of people on the demo was only natural.  According to 
>eye-witness reports, the reaction was not violent (as Cohen suggests) but 
>merely one of dismay.  They were asked to stand at the rear of the demo.  
>Not evicted from the demo, that is, just asked not to disrupt it.

There any proof of that?  And do you happen to know offhand if the Outrage 
group asked to join the demo and was refused, or did they just "show up"?

Todd

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN Premium. Get 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines