[lbo-talk] too little too late?

R rhisiart at CHARTER.NET
Sat Jun 26 00:36:07 PDT 2004


Re: [lbo-talk] too little too late?you're quite right, shane. that hit me in the face, too. and this wasn't his only flub. but that's al gore and his crowd. it's impossible for gore to get anything completely right, even if he's had lots of time to work on it. i sense gore isn't all that comfortable being at the center of dissent.

i believe he's saying this particular stuff about "democracy" for publicity purposes -- unless you prefer sheer stupidity as a reason. it sounds "good" to the average person, should one happen to be listening, or care. i'd like to know gore's agenda. promoting al gore, of course, but i wonder what he wants if kerry's elected. a face lift: any kind of pull he can get after throwing the 2000 election so miserably? it certainly isn't a job as official historian. maybe he wants to be official Democrat whipping boy offering the right wing?

"fetishized slaveowning founding fathers" is spot on. gore's a neoDixiecrat, like carter, clinton, edwards, et al. i wonder how many references to "democracy" al gore could find in the Federalist Papers. i'd guess two maybe. at least one perjorative, the other passing.

i'd say the levellers and diggers, and the quakers, too, of that day, were christian communists, if there could be such a thing. or the ideal associated with shay's revolt that since all "men" are created equal and fought equally for the revolution, no one should have more property or wealth than another. wouldn't that be an eye opener for today's democrats? or the USA at large?

i believe rome wasn't a republic unless one believes the patronage system is a form of republic. the romans, like most americans of today, appeared willing to give up everything for security. as tacitus said to the patronage based senate, paraphrase, "how easily you become slaves."

there's never been a nation state democracy in the history of the world. there's never been a state democracy in the history of "western civilization" or anywhere else that i know of. in western tradition, athens came close; but since there are no slaves in a democracy, that lets athens out.

the closest white folks of the US have ever come to democracy i would guess is the new england town meeting, although i'm not from that region and never attended one. i hope it's not true but i hear they're slowly becoming extinct.

R

----- Original Message ----- From: Shane Mage To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 10:08 PM Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] too little too late?

"R" wrote:

gore deserves a lot of credit for giving two excellent speeches, one on the heels of the other. a refreshing change. one can tell they've hit home because the right wing echo machine is calling him "insane" and "crazy."

if he'd demonstrated this kind of spine four years ago, US history would be very different...

A generally fine speech indeed, but marred by an egregious bit of historical ignorance:

"...democracy disappeared in Rome when Caesar crossed the Rubicon in violation of the Senate's long prohibition against a returning general entering the city while still in command of military forces. Though the Senate lingered in form and was humored for decades, when Caesar impoliticly combined his military commander role with his chief executive role, the Senate - and with it the Republic - withered away. And then for all intents and purposes, the great dream of democracy disappeared from the face of the Earth for seventeen centuries, until its rebirth in our land..."

Without a long lecture, let me point out a few of the many errors crammed into these short sentences. Firstly, the Roman republic was no democracy in any respect--the votes of the majority of citizens (just like in the USA) counted for nothing. Secondly, the Senate, an unelected body, was a narrow, though factionally divided, oligarchy. Thirdly, Caesar had overwhelming popular support and would have prevailed easily--despite the effective disenfranchisement of the majority of citizens--in any fair election under the established rules. Fourthly, Caesar's opponents, the Powells, Cheneys, Ashcrofts, and Scalias of his day, conspired openly, and in violation of established law (the "Law of the Ten Tribunes"), to deny Caesar the right to stand for office as Consul. Fifthly, those oligarchs physically assaulted two Tribunes of the People--in violation of a central principle of the Roman Constitution--forcing them to flee for their lives to Caesar's camp. Sixthly, when Caesar, under the greatest provocation, moved a force far smaller than that commanded by his enemies into Italia proper, the whole peninsula welcomed him as a liberator and the oligarchs fled the city in panic fear of a popular uprising although Caesar was still far from Rome. And finally (leaving aside minor errors) the rebirth of "the great dream of democracy" after seventeen centuries (this at least is correct) must be credited to the "Levellers" and "Diggers" of the English Revolution, and certainly not to Gore's fetishized slaveowning Founding Fathers, more than a century later, none of whom even pretended to be a democrat.

Shane Mage

"Thunderbolt steers all things."

Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64

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