----- Original Message ----- From: "snit snat" <snitilicious at tampabay.rr.com> To: <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org>; <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org> Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Comment on F-9/11
not related to this bit, but when is the F911 video due out. Did Moore makes sure to secure an early release. All the hoopla over McCain Feingold suggests that he might have or else the conservative really PH3 at r moore!!!
At 12:36 PM 6/28/2004, R wrote:
>not at all. depends on the person. i'd just like to see "minority" races
>lead off, if they're interested in such a discussion. there's a lot to be
>said if people want to; and a lot to be learned. i'd rather not have a
>"discussion" of race all by whites, for instance. we can't have a
>meaningful discussion without open participation by all. and the
>experience and knowledge of "minority" members.
\You realize that this is considered insultingly racist by some folk? no, \not idiot conservatives, either.
i was expecting this reaction sooner or later from somewhere.
i took a risk, kelley. i'ts not easy to put into words what i was trying to say. of course i realize people could misunderstand my point. i can't control that. that's one of the problems trying to put issues as delicate and sensitive as racial issues into writing on a message board where everyone is a complete stranger to me rather than talking about them face to face.
\I don't have time at the moment, but I posted two links that give you an \intro as to why. It's our job as white people to talk about how racism \works. It's not our job to facilitate a discussion inviting blacks to speak \up. It's our job to start it and keep it going.
it's everyone's "job" to talk about how racism works. that's my point. if everyone isn't talking, then it's not inclusive or productive. personally, i'd like to read an interaction, not whites alone writing about racism.
i haven't had time to read your links. since you have the attitude that not reading links you post is a personal affront, you might include in your postings an explanation why these links are so helpful and necessary. not everyone assumes that because you post them they are essential reading.
\Black people or anyone else shouldn't be put upon to explain how it works. \They don't need to tell anyone how it "feels" to be black. Just as I \shouldn't be asked to explain how it feels to be a chick in a forum \dominated by dicks.
no one is being put upon to explain anything. i wrote about a discussion, not an explanation. no one is even being asked to participate if they don't want to. i thought i made it clear all participation should be voluntary. if you read my postings, at no time did i ask anyone how it feels to be black, white, or any other thing. i never told anyone what to write or how to write it.
you seem to forget, joanna raised her opinion that racism is an issue "we've all been asleep about for a long time." i thought she had an interesting point. so, i followed up on her comment with a few suggestions to this board. what people do regarding my suggestions is entirely up to them. you are reading into my postings material that simply is not there.
anyone asked you lately to explain how it feels to be a "chick in a forum dominated by dicks"? and is "dicks" a non sexist term? if not, are you practicing what you preach?
\Taking the time, as Chuck did or Joe did, to talk \about how it works because they've spent some time observing it and paying \attention to it is what whites ought to do.
that's very good of chuck and joe. yet, talking about what whites ought to do simply is not enough. racism is a problem we share. we need to talk about what we need to do both separately and together. i'm sorry i may not have been a member of this board long enough to have enjoyed chuck and joe's opinions of what whites ought to do. perhaps they included what whites and blacks ought to do together. and other races as well.
\When a man on this list--like \Brad de Long once did, or Carrol has done, or Mike Yates has done, or \Michael Pollak has done (I'm sorry if I missed someone... I think I \have...)--to explain to other white men what sexism is about, THAT means a \lot to me. It means they GET IT. It means they are willing to put their \asses on the line and educate others. THEY have to take the heat for a change.
tell me, i've missed you taking the heat. have i've ever put any heat on you? if not, why are you putting so much heat on me?
\It's also about knowing when to move over and shut up and let people speak.
that's exactly what i'm trying to do, kelley. i don't want to carry this discussion. i want everyone to speak. not just whites. my point is, i want all races to be involved, if possible. and particularly *only if they are willing* and *on their terms only*
\But pointing fingers and saying "speak!" "tell us how you feel." "tell us \what it's like." ...
1. i'm not pointing fingers. 2. i'm not saying "speak" "tell us how you feel" "tell us what it's like..." i am saying contribute if you wish. if you don't, in my opinion, a disussion of racism is irrelevant. i can get all the white opinions i want, any time i want, anywhere i want. i want to know how the rest of society things. if the rest don't want to share, that's OK with me and is entirely up to them. understand?
\I know you're trying to facilitate and open up a space for folk you think \may not feel comfortable about talking about race.
thank you. that's it in a nut shell.
\But, I dunno, I guess I \would be insulted.
you guess? these two guy are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves. if they're insulted, i apologize. as you said, i'm only trying to facilitate and open a space. i have utterly no expectations to place on them. what they do is entirely their business and entirely up to them.
\These two men are not shy about talking about race.
i should hope not. neither am i, by the way.
\They \don't always say it in the way you would like, I'll bet. Which I bet is \pretty damn insulting. There's a WAY to be black now? Please read the link \I sent.
there's no way they could *not* say it the way i'd like. for them to say it anyway they'd like to say it is exactly the way i'd like them to say it. simple as that. just as what you've just written is exactly the way you feel. i'm not insulted.
\I don't know. I'm a white woman, if men did that to me, I'd be raging \pissed off. We have been talking about it for decades. And you want us to \talk some more? WHAT?
don't ask me. it's not what i want. it's what you want. i only threw out the idea for the members of this board to consider. i've no personal investment in it whatsoever. i can talk race with people i know until the cows come home. i thought joanna might have an interesting idea. how it plays out is entirely up to the members of this board, including, of course, you.
kelley, do you think you're the only white woman i've ever talked to about sexism or anything else? or any woman, for that matter?
\I know it's not fair to make equivalences between racism and sexism so I'm \just telling you how I would feel if you were to point your finger at me \and say, "Speak. You never speak about feminism. Tell us what feminists \care about."
it's not unfair. there are some elements in common i believe. i've not asked anyone to speak about racism, sexism or anything else *unless they want to.* it's voluntary, kelley, just like everything else on doug's LBO board.
\WHAT? Why the HELL don't you know already? (You as in a universal or \general you, not you, R)
kelley, i'm not "the man." i'm just a guy throwing out an idea the best way he knows how. do what you want.
\I'd tell you to fuck off and hit the library and learn while also doing \something to help feminist causes.
thanks. i already do all that.
\I know this sounds offensive. I don't mean to be.
that's OK. it's a bit hard to understand how someone knows they sound offensive when they don't mean to be. particularly someone of your intelligence. but that's OK.
\I'd encourage you to read \the links I sent, trace their citations, and oh Gloria Anzaldua _Making \Face, Making Soul/Haciendo Caras: Creative and Critical Perspectives by \Feminists of Color_, bell hooks in general. I learned so much from those \women about the fine line we must walk that means knowing when to shut up \and knowing when to speak. I don't always doing it so well, but hey I'm human.
\Kelley
i've learned a lot from reading, too. but i've learned a lot more from other people. over a rather long period of time.
feel better? still pals? i hope we're not stuck in a stagmire. ;-)
R
"We're in a fucking stagmire."
--Little Carmine, 'The Sopranos'
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