----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Brown" <cbrown at michiganlegal.org> To: <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org> Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 2:27 PM Subject: [lbo-talk] Comment on F-9/11
:
: From: "R" <rhisiart at charter.net>
:
:
: you're being very tactful, charles. i feel like i'm looking at the tip of
: the iceberg. since it's your iceberg, show as much or as little as you
: like. but let me ask:
:
: how do you think us white folks are doing?
:
: ^^^^^
:
: CB: :>) Not that great.
:
: ^^^
:
: do you think the white folks are
: enlightened enough to change and eradicate racism?
:
: ^^^
: CB: Yes, I think you have got it in you'all, but we are going to have to
: work some to bring it out.
:
: ^^^
:
:
: are the white folks
: moving fast enough for you, and in the right direction?
:
: ^^^^
: CB: No, and starting with Reaganism, they started moving backward from
where
: they had got through the civil rights movement success, et seq.
:
since the white folks benefit from racism, charles, i doubt you're going to see the mass of whites move to eradicate racism in the near future. while you're waiting on us, what do you plan to do?
: ^^^^
:
: i'd say our record hasn't been so good since the neodixiecrat carter
: administration. that's going on thirty years. remember how jesus ... i
mean
: "jimmy" carter's church didn't allow black members? (that rabbit who
chased
: him had the right idea.) what i've been seeing these past 30 years
reminds
: me so much of a latter day replay of Reconstruction, with a few new
twists.
:
: ^^^^
:
: CB: Yes, there is a certain spiral of history effect, seemingly.
how you react to this? as an intellectualized abstract "spiral of history"? or as a more serious problem?
:
: ^^^
:
: but i'd much rather hear your opinion, and the opinions of others.
:
: it's OK focusing on white folks and their attitudes and actions. in fact,
: it's essential. but i believe there also are elements in the black communi
ty
: that need attention, non-dominant or not.
:
:
: ^^^
: CB: Sure, there is a certain "knot" of reciprocal determinations here
where
: self-help for Black people is very necessary, however, fundamentally,
: anti-Black (colored people in general) racism is the priority problem to
be
: solved.
i'd agree to a degree. how far do you think you'll get convincing whites in general -- since it's the white race that benefits -- of your position? maybe that's a rhetorical question. are you counting on whites to do the convincing? we find it just as difficult convincing our neaderthals as you'd find it hard to convince condi rice or clarence thomas that they should change their ways.
overall, my point is that as the whites have been moving backward, so have the blacks. that's my greatest concern. that's what i mean when i raise the issue of a parallel with the destruction of the progressive era. you appear to be looking toward the white community. i believe both black and white communities have our work cut out for us. and we'd better come up with some approaches.
:
: ^^^^^^
:
: a sample list:
: 1. clarence thomas
: 2. condi rice
: 3. ward connerly in calif and on the road
: 4. the NAACP's failure to get the phony felon list in florida destroyed,
: despite winning the lawsuit
: 5. colon powell
: 6. several other opportunistic black republicans, who believe getting
ahead
: is being republican
: 7. last but not least, the "black" president, bill clinton. i haven't
read
: his autobiography. to anyone who has read that pointless tome: is there
: anything in it about race? remember how the "black" president was dead
set
: against changing the law to make charges for possession of crack
equivalent
: to powder cocaine charges? "No," was his response when asked if he'd even
: bring it up.
:
: you see, the reason i think these areas (just a token few) need attention
is
: that whenever the white folks who aren't so enlightened look at race, they
: listen to wealthy, successful afro-american "spokes persons" who say
things
: are just fine in the black community and everyone's happy; that programs
: like affirmative action aren't necessary -- and, in fact, are an insult to
: the afro-american people; that "reformed" (thanks to the republicans,
: neoDixicrats and the "black" president) welfare mothers benefit from
working
: two jobs and still being under the poverty line; that blacks who are
willing
: to work are doing well but the rest are lazy, shiftless, resort to a life
of
: crime and violence, and deserve what they get. and so forth.
:
: ^^^
: CB: Yes, I see what you mean. It is a very difficult riddle to solve,
: getting white people to see through these illusions. It is especially
: difficult when the racism is the main weapon of the capitalist ruling
class
: against the working class, and therefore all the main institutions of
: indoctrination still inculcate it in mass, white thinking.
it's difficult, indeed. you're expecting whites -- the people who benefit from racism -- to see through their illusions? illusions that are now being supported by the names on my laundry list of reprobates above. it appears that blacks have joined the "capitalist ruling class," at least in their dreams. that makes the concept of using race rather ironic, wouldn't you say?
:
: ^^^^^^
:
:
: as a reflection of the attitudes fostered by ignorant whites and
: self-serving black republicans, people on the list may know that just a
few
: days ago an unarmed black man was beaten by Los Angeles Police peace
: officers after surrendering. much like the rodney king beating of a few
: years ago, if you're familiar with that. the beating, like the king
: beating, was caught on video tape and aired, over and over again, on TV.
: over and over so people who are afraid of blacks and who get off on TV
: programs like Cops, where blacks are the bad guys, can enjoy that
vicarious
: thrill of watching an unarmed, defenseless black guy get the shit beat out
: of him.
:
: the police chief, a former new yorker, is making mostly the right moves
...
: it seems. yet, one thing that stuck in my mind regarding the PR follow-up
: to this crime and civil rights horror was the story about how the LA chief
: of police had turned to religious leaders in the black community for ...
who
: knows what. this rings of exactly the way whites and black religious
: leaders always got together to control people in the black community
during
: the jim crow era. plus ca change, plus ca meme chose.
:
: ^^^^^
: CB: Yes, although the Black church was also a root of organized resistance
: at some points.
yes indeed. things are never black and white, are they charles. ;-)
:
: ^^^
:
:
: at this point, i'm wondering if it's at all possible to have a fully
candid
: discussion of racism on this list. or if that's even the purpose of the
: list. doug will have to weigh in on the latter if he chooses.
:
: R
:
: ^^^^^^
:
: CB: I think you are doing the right thing in urging a discussion and
trying
: to have one.
thank you charles. that's very kind of you. i appreciate that very much.
:There have been many discussions of race through the history of
: the list, arguments and debates , too. So, Doug has by implication ( if
not
: specific statement in the "prelim") included it as a list topic.
by default, doug? thanks to doug, too. as usual, the best moderator on the net.
:
: I think a good issue for white people to discuss is the _material_ ( not
: moral) basis for reparations and affirmative action.
i'm a firm believer in reparations. i hope shrub doesn't bankrupt the country before that issue is settled, especially since it's hard enough going as it is. there's absolutely no reason considering the immense contribution the afro-americans made and continue making to this country that reparations not be a high priority. what was accomplished for free over decades deserves to be repaid.
and affirmative action. i believe affirmative action was undermined because it was race based. i know, on the surface, that statement sounds racist. but hear me out. i'd like to see an affirmative action that's based on need. one that includes all races. why? because it would, of course, include blacks in need. but it would also include the whites that are being used by the white power elite to destroy affirmative action. it undermines completely the "before i was born" argument. i'd love to see the white power elite deal with whites and blacks in concern demanding affirmative action, equal opportunity, and etc. i know this is far from perfect. but it would create a real challenge to the status quo and put affirmative action back on the menu.
now go ahead and take me on, list members. ;-)
:How do wealth and
: class/status advantages get inherited, such that white people can't say
"all
: that was before I was born " ?
that's true; it did happen before they were born. a lot of things happened before they were born. shrub's family got enormously wealthy -- do they think that's a good thing? the point isn't who's responsible but what can we do to fix it. nobody's responsible for what happened 200 years ago. but we are responsible for what happens today, in our lifetimes. and where we see inequity and unfairness, that is our responsibility as members of society. that "before i was born" stuff is sucker bait.
it's difficult getting the "average" white person to understand the advantages many are born with. many aren't born with advantages. this becomes a social class issue, which americans tend to shy away from. and which the power elite definitely don't want us to consider. as the economy continues to droop, the new jobs, as kerry said, are at lower salaries, no benefits, etc., i sincerely hope more people will begin to realize they're playing against a stacked deck.
:Furthermore, what _about_ the Black middle
: class ,
you'll have to help me out with this one.
: and even more, what about Black drug dealers and others who harm the
: Black community? How is it that Black people are not "doing it to
: themselves" at this stage in the history of American racism ?
this concerns me. i remember when the san jose, calif, mercury ran articles about the CIA/drug trafficing connection in Los Angeles a few years back. this involved congresswoman maxine water's district. maxine, who my wife went to college with, said that if it was the last thing she ever did she would get to the bottom of this. well, she never did get to the bottom of it and she's still alive and kicking. i was a big maxine waters fan until that time. this happened during the clinton era -- you guessed it, the "black" president. rumors are she was bought off by a big donation and her husband's ambassadorship. and other things -- insider democratic party stuff. i've no idea.
there's no doubt what the drug traffic has done to black communities, to black youth. we read all the time about the jail population.
:
: I'm willing to discuss these with you, but I stand by my main assertion
that
: the solution to racism in America is not in the hands of Blacks , but in
the
: hands of whites.
:
i have to disagree with you there, charles. it's in all of our hands. it's in the hands of the human race. as i said above, you can't put the responsibility in the hands of those who benefit from this terrible condition. the reason the black revolution of the 1960s was successful was that you had MLK, jr, and malcolm X coming at the problem from both directions, and the black people were mobilized. they wouldn't back down and they wouldn't take no for an answer. i don't see that spirit any more. i see glimmers of it here and there. but nothing like i saw in the 1960s. it saddens me deeply to write that.
in 2000, i heard blacks say that the jim crow felon list problem in florida wouldn't have happened if they'd had the old civil rights workers around. those civil rights workers, they said, would have anticipated the problem and been ready for it. i don't see that level of preparation or fight anywhere today. i sure hope i'm wrong. not only because it effects my immediate family but because it effects us all as human beings.
thanks for writing, charles,
R