[lbo-talk] Orientalists and Islamists

B. docile_body at yahoo.com
Sat May 22 11:28:14 PDT 2004


Yoshie wrote:

"Pop orientalists and hard-line Islamists agree with each other on the 'essence of Islam' -- they both come up with the most conservative possible interpretation of what hijab means, unsupported by textual evidence from the Qur'an, and assert that it's been in use across classes and regions for ages, undocumented by empirical historical evidence."

Your central idea that Western "pop orientalists" and the like are responsible for current fanaticism for veils/hijab/burqas/chadors/etc [as opposed to islam being responsible for them] I find to be pretty weird.

There is textual evidence, Yoshie. Here, I spent maybe 15 minutes getting some examples for you.

[from http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.html]

Sura 24, verse 31:

"And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed."

Sura 33, verse 59:

"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful."

Hadith [from http://muttaqun.com/niqab.html]

Bukhari 6:282

'Aisha used to say: "When (the Verse): 'They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms,' was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces."

Tafseer - Ibn Katheer

"Allah commanded the muslim women to cover this sheet on top of them to cover their bodies except one eye, when it is necessary for them to come out of their homes."

Tafseer - Commentary by Ibn Jarir and Ahkam-ul-Quran, Vol.III, p.457

Imam Muhammad bin Sirin said: "When I asked Ubaida bin Sufyan bin al-Harith (ra) the meaning of this verse and how the jalbaab was to worn, he demonstrated it to me by pulling a sheet of cloth over his head to cover his entire body, leaving the left eye uncovered. This was also the explanation of the word 'Alaihinna in this verse"

Tafseer - Alu'si, Rul-ul-Ma'ani, Vol. 22, p. 89

"Ibn Jarir Tabari and Ibn Al-Mundhir described the method of wearing the jalbaab according to Ibn Abbas (ra) and Qatadah (ra). The sheet should be wrapped around from the top, covering the forehead, then bringing one side of the sheet to cover the face below the eyes so that most of the face and the upper body is covered. This will leave both eyes uncovered (which is allowed in necessity)."

Yoshie wrote:

"The point is not that colonialism invented the veil --various face veils and head coverings not only predate colonialism but also Islam"

I never suggested otherwise. But with Islam conservative female dress became enshrined, attributed to the wishes of God himself. In other words, if you don't do it, you could go to Hell.

Also, I don't remember anyone claiming veils were exclusive to Islam [in fact I said the opposite in the post you respond to], or that veils started after the Qur'an was written. You write your post as if that assertion was made. It wasn't.

You also wrote "The veiling originally was more about the mixture of class and gender than sexuality."

About gender but not sexuality? How do you separate the two?

The passages prescribing hijab are addressed to "women of the believers" not just the wealthy women of the believers. The Qur'an and the hadith surrounding it didn't liberalize veiling traditions--they extended them to more people than before.

B



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