> -----Original Message-----
> From: lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org [mailto:lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org]
> On Behalf Of Doug Henwood
> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 10:43 AM
> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Fallujah: a picture of the triumph
>
> Carrol Cox wrote:
>
> >Nice dull metaphor, "stopped clock." Brilliant analysis.
>
> Love ya, CC!
>
> >But what was the clock stopped on? A metaphor, even as dull a one as
> >stopped clock, ought to have some remote indication of the tenor the
> >vehicle carries.
>
> The reason the stopped clock metaphor is accurate is that you write
> as if everything we need to know about politics we could have learned
> by 1917, or 1968, or some other moment in the past. Most of your
> examples come from thirty or forty years ago, and most of you textual
> citations come from dimly remembered items you read decades ago.
>
> >My arguments at the time (and the arguments of 10s of millions around
> >the world, was (1) that a U.S. occupation would turn out to be a
> >disaster (prediction confirmed)
>
> I thought from the first that the invasion of Iraq would be a crime
> and a disaster. But once it happened, what was the best course to
> advocate? My position then, as it is now, is that we should try to
> find out what Iraqis want - which, 15 months ago was some UN without
> the US solution, and now is just US out.
>
> > and (2) that as a matter of practical
> >politics the anti-war movement _had_ to make one core demand: U.S. Out
> >Now! The seminar-room wankery of acadmics and journalists lusting for
> >nuance was one major barrier to such a development of the anti-war
> >movement.
>
> Bullshit. I know you don't think it's important to talk with people
> who aren't already in agreement, but building the antiwar movement
> requires talking to such people, and a lot of them had serious
> problems with the immediate withdrawal position. That's a fact of
> public opinion, whether you like it or not.
>
> >When a prediction based on the intransigence of u.s. imperialism turns
> >out to be as disastrously wrong as your and Parenti's prediction proved
> >to be,
>
> What was being predicted? Neither he nor I had high hopes for U.S.
> behavior after the invasion. The Afghanistan precedent was just one
> reason to believe that.
>
> > then you can babble about stopped clocks and I won't have a
> >rejoinder except to admit I was wrong.
> >
> >You and Parenti were wrong, horribly wrong. That kind of false
> >dependence on passive opinion (as opposed to action) in Iraq and of the
> >ability of left-liberals to influence the u.s. government to do good
> >things seriously fucks up left thought and action.
>
> That wasn't our position at all, and I don't know where you're getting
> this.
>
> And if "left-liberals" (though both CP & I consider ourselves
> Marxists) can't influence the USG, what the hell could the handful of
> people like you do?
>
> > It has in the past,
> >it will in the future. You are the stopped clock it appears. You are
> >stopped on the number which says "Trust the U.S. Government."
>
> Are you demented, confused, or lying?
>
> > (Numbers
> >don't say anything; clocks point to numbers, not seminar papers. Which
> >is why I objected to your metaphor on both aesthetic and political
> >grounds.)
>
> Could you offer your professional opinion on "the sword outwears its
> sheath"?
>
> Doug
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