It's not the point of the retributive theory that punishment reduces crime or stops people from recidivism -- though I agree with those goals, and I would balance them against retribution. I wouldn't insist on retribution no matter what. But I don't think you, or for that mater the 9-11 families, would ignore these goals. Maybe they would not want Afghanistan flattened -- I certainly didn't -- but that's not retribution. That's not even vengeance. It's blind rage.
Don't tell me, however, that they wouldn't -- or you wouldn't -- want bin Ladin and his gang brought to justice -- arrested, tried fairly, and jailed. Even though the likelihood that would stop anyone but them from committing terrorist acts is zero. I don't believe you, or Ted, or Like, or anyone who isn't a saint who says they don't care about punishing the guilty. Not merely stopping them. And not overpunishing them either.
But I suspect we have reached a dead end on this. Later I will try to state my own argument for retributivism. You will not, however, move me by appealing to my desire for mercy, which I have not especially got, or by accusing me of primitive bloodthirstiness (Shane), or suggesting that I want to increase crime (Miles? John?, I forget).
I defend bad guys, er, accused persons or convicted ones, and try to keep them or get them out of jail. But that's because I believe in the principle of the system that puts them there, which requires that those whom we punish be afforded real defense. Also that we only punish the really guilty because they have done bad things. But I know too well what they do and what they are like to think that bad guys shouldn't be punished, though.
-- Not, however, my clients, if I have anything to do with it! ;->
jks
--- joanna bujes <jbujes at covad.net> wrote:
> And tell me Justin, does punishment prevent people
> from committing
> crimes? Does it revive the victims? Does it heal the
> victims? Was it not
> a fact that most of the victims of 911 did not wish
> for retributive war?
>
> If I had a gun in my hand, as I once did, and saw
> someone raping/hurting
> my child/friend/sister, I would probably shoot. But
> this would actually
> stop them.
>
> I notice though that most of the crimes you mention
> are pretty much
> built into the system. It seems like the thing to
> focus on is to prevent
> the crime rather than punish it.
>
> The psychopaths though probably need isolation.
>
> Joanna
>
> andie nachgeborenen wrote:
>
> >--- joanna bujes <jbujes at covad.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>And then there's always "Mercy is the highest form
> >>of justice," being
> >>clear that mercy cannot take place without
> >>understanding. None of this,
> >>of course, is of any use in a society -- such as
> >>ours -- which is based
> >>on crime.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >An idle sentiment. You feel no more merciful than
> >anyone here do towards war criminals, corrupt
> >officials, corporate thugs who poison whole
> >communities, white collar hoodlums who loot pension
> >funds and rob the widow and the orphan, cops who
> >torture suspects, and the general rifraff who
> >constitute some of my paying clientele -- when they
> >caught. And do you feel merciful to the murderers
> and
> >gangsters whom I spend much of my time defending
> >(zealously!) pro bono?
> >
> >The rights of defendants should be scrupulously
> >respected, and they deserve good representation --
> >that's my job! --, and but with that very important
> >limitation, do you want them loose if they are
> guilty
> >and the evidence is there to show it?
> >
> > Faced with real bad guys who cause real harm, you
> >think what all decent people think, these people
> >deserve a lot of due process, and if they are
> >convicted, they should be punished.
> Proportionately,
> >of course, not insanely, the way we do it in
> America.
> >It's only in the abstract that you can talk this
> way.
> >
> >jks
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
>
>
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