First, Justin has made two valuable points that I think are vital:
1. Why do vanillas feel the need to post what creeps them out? I never have felt the urge to announce to the world that the thought of interacting with a vagina is off the Richter Scale of ick for me (no offense to vagina owners intended). To be clear: it is not vaginas that ick me, but the thought of my interacting with one that produces ick.
2. The piece Michael posted was academic ick. Since you cannot argue with ick, I did not see the need to clinically discuss it. But I am always up for clinical, non-ick discussions of kink.
Second, (following Kelley) I think talking about culture is important because I think agreements about deficits are easy to come by on the left while agreements about culture are not, and the lack of these agreements impedes the work of the left.
Charles writes:
And I'm not going to any demonstrations for the right to sado-masochistic marriage :>)
Okay. As long as you don't try to criminalize sm behavior.
> Seriously Brian, if you are trying to build mass support for gay
marriage, do you think it's a good tactic to equate in some sense
gays and lesbians with sado-masochists?
I think the most effective way is to speak of this issue as one about the right of sexual self-expression. Everyone has a sexuality. If we can use this as a common ground. then the left can be more effective. Unfortunately many people are squicked by sex talk.
> Do you really think that Chris's notions of sadists are rejected
by the vast majority of people, i.e. that his notions of sadists are
peculiar?
Sadly no. That still doesn't mean I am going to pander and allow mistaken notions to run rampant, thereby upping the harm to kinksters.
When I characterized Chris's ideas as peculiar, what I meant was that I found Chris' need to speak about his sexual ick peculiar. I should have been more clear (Justin's post helped clarify what I was trying to express).
> While I am at it, I've been thinking about your continuing theme of
chastising the left and this list for failure to support gay rights. Look
around you , my brother. This list is one of the lesbian/gay friendliest
spaces anywhere.
I agree. LBO is very queer friendly. I do not find the left, however, to be equally gracious. Your experience may be different.
> And, furthermore, in the larger world outside of this list, the left is the
only place on the political spectrum that gay rights get solid support.
71% in Missouri. 78% in Louisiana.
What portion of those numbers do you think were leftists?
In the only state where I can marry my husband legally, it was the courts, not the left that brought about the victory (for however long it lasts).
Sorry Charles, I do not see the left as being as solidly in support of queers as you do. It has just not been my experience.
> So, what are you saying when you imply, you aren't going to "support"
the left if the left doesn't support gay rights
I will always support and work for the left. Forgive me if something I wrote led you to believe that I would not. I do sometimes get disgusted with fellow leftists who are sexual reactionaries, but that does not change my support for the left.
> Still, not too many people in the struggle for workers, Black, Brown and Red
people and women are going to be persuaded and moved by somebody who says
"I am forebearing from supporting "your" left struggles for women, workers etc.
until you get more vigorous in your support of gay rights."
That is why I wouldn't say it. I will criticize them for their lack of vigor or praise for people/policies which have harmed/persecuted sexual minorities, but I am not going to withhold my support for their causes. I am content to point out their reactionary habits and challenge them on them.
> Most people would assume that you are a rightwinger, which you would be if
you are not already supporting the main left struggles.
I have been assumed to be so many things by so many people, that I pay little attention to other people's uninformed guesses about my reality. And isn't securing the right to sexual self-expression one of the main struggles of the left?
> If you don't already support the left on its main issues, you are a
rightwinger by default.
Does that mean then that someone who doesn't support the right of sexual self-expression is a rightwinger Charles?
> And now you add that people are not "progressive" because they don't
"support" sadists' sexual "freedom"?
Yes -- see just above.
> And you think that distaste for sadism is "peculiar" ?
Yes very. Don't you? I find my distaste for interacting with vagina peculiar too. I have as little desire for vagina as I do for living in Iowa, but I feel no disgust at the thought of living in Iowa, while I am squicked by the thought of oral sex with a women. I must work on this.
> My brother, think about what you are saying. How many people's minds
do you really think you are going to change with this line?
Many. I have found that people are very receptive to sexual discussion if you are honest and open about your own sexuality. People want to be able to discuss their sexuality in a clinical, non-ick way. Most often no one has taken the time to show them how to do so. Once the discussion starts almost everyone realizes that they too have kinks.
> I gotta tell you. Anybody who is not for workers', women's and Black
people's liberation already, I don't really care whether or not they get to
have the type of sex they want to have.
That is why you are not very effective in the arena of sexual issues. When a person fights for the right of sexual self-expression, he ends up fighting for a lot of people who probably disagree with him on every issue. You seem to fight for the rights of those who can be slotted into groups: workers, Blacks, women, etc. When you struggle for sexual rights you are doing so for all people since all people have a sexual component.
> In fact, I'm in favor of _depriving_ rightwingers of sex - hetero, homo,
sado-masochistic, any kind,private, public - until they support the left.
Aw, c'mon Charles. Some of my best mascochists are right-wingers. Why deprive me of a little fun. Remember, I'm a sadist, not a masochist.
Brian Dauth Queer Buddhist Kinky Comrade