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> Seriously Brian, if you are trying to build mass support for gay
marriage, do you think it's a good tactic to equate in some sense gays and lesbians with sado-masochists?
I think the most effective way is to speak of this issue as one about the right of sexual self-expression. Everyone has a sexuality. If we can use this as a common ground. then the left can be more effective. Unfortunately many people are squicked by sex talk.
^^^ CB: I tend to refer to sexual liberation.
How do your ideas about getting rid of the self (sorry I forgot exactly how you put what you say about the "self") impact sexual SELF-expression ?
To me, sexual self-expression reminds of freedom of speech, speech as self-expression. The analogy continues when you emphasis what people do alone is of no concern to others. A similar argument is made with respect to "pure thought" and "pure speech" , meaning thought or speech that doesn't impact anybody else, doesn't affect society.
This is alright as far as it goes, but then I also think if we are talking about expression, sexual or verbal, that by definition will have no impact on anybody else, then actually society has no interest in prohibiting it _or protecting it_. What do I care whether or not somebody can have s and m sex or not ? Why should I go to a demonstration, or write a letter to the editor, et al. for someone's freedom to have s and m sex if by definition, it is not going to have any impact on me or others ?
> Do you really think that Chris's notions of sadists are rejected
by the vast majority of people, i.e. that his notions of sadists are
peculiar?
Brian: Sadly no. That still doesn't mean I am going to pander and allow mistaken notions to run rampant, thereby upping the harm to kinksters.
When I characterized Chris's ideas as peculiar, what I meant was that I found Chris' need to speak about his sexual ick peculiar. I should have been more clear (Justin's post helped clarify what I was trying to express).
CB: What are the mistaken notions running rampant ?
Isn't there a freedom of expressing sexual ick ? Peculiar to me means unusual. It is not unusual to express sexual ick.
Anyway, Justin said a lot. Which part articulated your idea ?
^^^^^^^
Brian: I agree. LBO is very queer friendly. I do not find the left, however, to be equally gracious. Your experience may be different.
^^^^^ CB: I'd say the left is a lot more queer friendly than the center and the right. From a political standpoint it is important to know who your friends are.
^^^^^^
> And, furthermore, in the larger world outside of this list, the left is
the only place on the political spectrum that gay rights get solid support.
Brian: 71% in Missouri.78% in Louisiana. What portion of those numbers do you think were leftists?
In the only state where I can marry my husband legally, it was the courts, not the left that brought about the victory (for however long it lasts).
Sorry Charles, I do not see the left as being as solidly in support of queers as you do. It has just not been my experience.
^^^^^ CB: It might be interesting survey the opinions, and this is the place where there's a lot of talent and knowledge on statistics and opinion studies on that type of thing.
On the percentages above, I think the other questions are what fraction of the 29% and 22% who voted "for" were on the left ? 9/10ths ? 99/100 ? My guess is the fraction on the left for prohibiting gay marriage was very small, but what about a survey ?
> So, what are you saying when you imply, you aren't going to "support"the
left if the left doesn't support gay rights
I will always support and work for the left. Forgive me if something I wrote led you to believe that I would not. I do sometimes get disgusted with fellow leftists who are sexual reactionaries, but that does not change my support for the left.
^^^^^ CB: Well, good to get clear on that. ^^^^^
> Still, not too many people in the struggle for workers, Black, Brown and
Red people and women are going to be persuaded and moved by somebody who
says "I am forebearing from supporting "your" left struggles for women,
workers etc.until you get more vigorous in your support of gay rights."
That is why I wouldn't say it. I will criticize them for their lack of vigor or praise for people/policies which have harmed/persecuted sexual minorities, but I am not going to withhold my support for their causes. I am content to point out their reactionary habits and challenge them on them.
> Most people would assume that you are a rightwinger, which you would be
ifyou are not already supporting the main left struggles.
Brian: I have been assumed to be so many things by so many people, that I pay little attention to other people's uninformed guesses about my reality. And isn't securing the right to sexual self-expression one of the main struggles of the left?
^^^^ CB: "self-expression" might be more liberal/center than left. The focus on the "self", the individual. That's why I say "sexual liberation".
But maybe sexuality inherently raises the self more than other issues, I have to think about it. And the left does have to develop a theory of self which distinguishes it from the liberal/center.
^^^^^^
> If you don't already support the left on its main issues, you are a
rightwinger by default.
Does that mean then that someone who doesn't support the right of sexual self-expression is a rightwinger Charles?
^^^^^^ CB: "Sexual self-expression is too broad. There are anti-social forms of sexual self-expression , like rape.
As to the status of sexual liberation, I'm thinking that some forms of sexual liberation do not give rise to a right as fundamental as some other main left concerns. But today, repression of gay/lesbian sexual self-expression is rightwing, by the movement, struggle and political expression of lgbt.
Also, I analyze sexual liberation especially in relation to women's liberation.
CB:> And now you add that people are not "progressive" because they don't"support" sadists' sexual "freedom"?
Yes -- see just above.
CB: I haven't seen an analysis that gives sadists' sexual liberation the movement status of other left issues.
>CB And you think that distaste for sadism is "peculiar" ?
Brian:Yes very. Don't you?
^^^ CB: No
^^^^
Brian: I find my distaste for interacting with vagina peculiar too. I have as little desire for vagina as I do for living in Iowa, but I feel no disgust at the thought of living in Iowa, while I am squicked by the thought of oral sex with a women. I must work on this.
^^^^^ CB: What's wrong with having squicks ?
^^^^^^
>CB: My brother, think about what you are saying. How many people's minds do
you really think you are going to change with this line?
Many. I have found that people are very receptive to sexual discussion if you are honest and open about your own sexuality. People want to be able to discuss their sexuality in a clinical, non-ick way. Most often no one has taken the time to show them how to do so. Once the discussion starts almost everyone realizes that they too have kinks.
CB: Yes, naughtiness and sex seem to go together like a horse and carriage because of sexual repression. I don't know what the impact of general social liberation will have on this connection.
>CB: I gotta tell you. Anybody who is not for workers', women's and Black
people's liberation already, I don't really care whether or not they get to
have the type of sex they want to have.
Brian: That is why you are not very effective in the arena of sexual issues. When a person fights for the right of sexual self-expression, he ends up fighting for a lot of people who probably disagree with him on every issue. You seem to fight for the rights of those who can be slotted into groups: workers, Blacks, women, etc. When you struggle for sexual rights you are doing so for all people since all people have a sexual component.
^^^^
CB: How do you know I am not very effective in the arena of sexual issues ?
:>)
Why do I want to struggle for the sexual freedom of rightwingers ?
^^^^^^^
> CB:In fact, I'm in favor of _depriving_ rightwingers of sex - hetero,
homo,sado-masochistic, any kind,private, public - until they support the
left.
Brian: Aw, c'mon Charles. Some of my best mascochists are right-wingers. Why deprive me of a little fun. Remember, I'm a sadist, not a masochist.
Brian Dauth Queer Buddhist Kinky Comrade
^^^^^ CB: Rightwing masochists will be sentenced to mild tickling with feathers short of discomfort, and regular, continuous , small doses of morphine, bufferin and various healthy analgesics. They must attend happy hours every Friday and drink until they feel no pain.
Wouldn't Buddha recommend celibacy as a path to enlightenment ?
Charles Buddhist Viet Cong