Mike B. responds:
>If I could be convinced that humans were genetically
predisposed to dominance and submission, I'd give up
on the socialist project.
Why? I have always understood the socialist project as ending human suffering, and not to give rise to a particular type of human being. The problem with your approach is that you are fixated on producing a particular type of person -- one who is not interested in domination/ submission in any relationship. But producing that particular type of person is not a guarantee that suffering will be reduced. In fact, we cannot say what particular type of person or society will emerge as suffering is reduced. I can say from personal experience that the person I am now is radically different from the ones I used to be, and I fully expect this one to morph into other ones as I continue to pursue the goal of eliminating suffering. What I have to keep in mind is that all of these selves are also no-selves, and that the goal is not to have a particular self/no-self, but to produce as little suffering as possible and regard the consequent self/no-self and community created with equanimity. ***************************************************** Mike B) responds:
I'm not opposed to the reduction of suffering, in fact I think a great reduction in suffering could be accomplished through social ownership of the means of production/consumption, democratically self-managed by the producers themselves.
My point is that the generalized acceptance of dominance and submission rituals in daily life is part and parcel of a social psychology which I'm convinced is ingrained the the exploitive social relationships which are generated within class societies. This forms a character structure which acts as a brake on workers thinking of themselves as being capable of organizing a classwide force capable of taking, holding and operating the means of production for themselves. I'm not convinced that these rituals are genetic, although I concede that Freud thought they were. Part of the reason I say this is that I don't see the kind of contrived games which humans play vis a vis these rituals in the rest of the animal kingdom.
So, I tend to think that the phenonmenon is related to the social constructions we humans have made for ourselves during our emergence from a state of nature.
Formerly I wrote and still stand by the notion:
> For now my opinion is that people are socialized to
accept dominance by existing authority and have been
since at least the dawn of class society.
Brian asks: But what if people enjoyed erotic D/s before the dawn of class society?
**********
If that were true, then I'd speculate that these rituals were induced by some unequal power sharing within tribal/family life, most likely related to the division of labour.
I also wrote and stand by:
> I have become convinced of this view through a
critical reading of the reasearch done by Reich,
Fromm, Horney and others.
Brian responded: I am convinced that people have a genetic predisposition to D/s by decades of experience in the kink community, interacting with and learning from people who live D/s as part of their lives.
But my response would be the same. I included part of the review of Chancer's book on sado-masochistic relations in daily life in my last response:
> "She sees sadomasochism as a fundamental principle
of everyday life, including work and family
relationships; and she sees it, more important still,
not primarily as a sexual matter at all, but as
integral to power, dependence, and unfreedom."
And Brian replies: She can see it that way, but her vision is not necessarily reality. Do you know how much of her time was spent studying/living kink life? ***********
Mike B): No, I don't know. I haven't read her book. I have only read the review of her book, posted here by Michael P.
Quoting from the book review again Mike B) wrote:
> Further Kovel writes that Chancer
roots,"sadomasochism in the dynamics of power rather
than instinct."
Brian responds with the last words on this topic: It is fine that he theoretically roots it there, but again, did this decision emerge from his studying/living kink life?
Regards, Mike B)
===== "Philosophy, which once seemed obsolete, lives on because the moment to realize it was missed."
Theodor Adorno, NEGATIVE DIALECTICS http://profiles.yahoo.com/swillsqueal
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