<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> Miles: > I'm not saying any positions are equally valid; I'm saying there are social conditions in which each position will be considered right and the other wrong. (Think like a sociologist rather than a philosopher here!) Whether a position is valid in some universal sense doesn't really interest me (I don't know how to even approach the question). .... No, you're not getting my point. According to our standards, its perfectly appropriate to reject the fundamentalist view; it defies our shared standards of logic and evidence. I'm not worried that they're right; I'm just trying to point out that in certain social conditions, fundamentalism "works" as a good argument, just as your post here "works" as a good argument in these social conditions. OK, you are being a consistent Rortyian here. So we are on different pages altogether. I actually think my argument (which I have not given here) that we can have reason to think we are right and they are wrong also gives us reason to think that their views won't work as well as ours by their standards. But of cvourse we both agree that our views are not even possible outside a narrow set of circumstnces. Fortunately, those are the circumstances under which we find ourselves, so we are lucky eniugh to have stumbled on, if not the right views about everything, at least the right general sort of views and ways to find out what the right views are. That may sound arrogant, but it's the basis of the scientific revolution. And since Miles and I don't disagree (although Chris and I do) that there are no differences of kind beltween scientific and moral beliefs, I think we can be moderately confident of our moral beliefs too. > There's another issue you haven't addressed. We have been talking of > the standards of different groups rather loosely. When do we have a > different group, though? How do we know that? Miles: So to answer your question: we know people belong to different groups if they display different beliefs and actions (I hope that answer doesn't exasperate you; I think it's reasonable.) Well, Miles, Judge Posner and I are both white Chicagoan American Jewish atheist middle class lawyers, and we have different beliefs and actions . . . .  So I am not sure how much help your answer is. jks</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com