--- T Fast <tfast at yorku.ca> On a different note it is
simply not true that the
> LTOV does a poor job at
> measuring and explaining empirical macroeconomic
> phenomena (see for example
> Shaikh
But as the Sraffans have shown in theory and Brenner (amiong others) in practice, value theory is superfluous, you can say everything Marxuists want to say about exploitaion at the systemic level, crisis tendencies, etc. without mentioning value.
>
http://homepage.newschool.edu/~AShaikh/labthvalue.pdf).
> Quite a part
> from whether or not you, Doug or Andy find it useful
> for the work you do is
> another matter. I suspect that given the work Andie
> does the LTOV has no
> particular use as Andie's project is about justice
> within the normative
> dimensions of liberal theory as to what is or is not
> fair.
You are making certain assumptions about my work that are not justified. Also about my politics. You seem to thing (am I mistaken?) that I am a sort of left social democrat who has no basic problem with capitalism, but would like higher wages and a stronger safety net. (And who wouldn't?) That is not correct. I am a socialist -- in the real world,a raving lunatic left winger. It's only hereabouts that I play a right winger.
Exploitation
> within liberalism is only about policing exceptional
> behaviour vis-a-vis
> liberal norms not about undoing the normative
> foundations of liberal
> justice.
That I am certainly not interested in doing. Ley me explain. Liberalism for me means:
competitive elections (no one party states) universal suffrage extensive civil and political liberties (1st amendment, 4th amendment, 6th, 7th, and 8th amendments, 13tyh, 14th, 15th, amendments too -- for starters)
Now in this ense I think we are all liberals except for the handful of trogdolytes who defend one part states and the anarchists who fantasize about happy harmony without law.
Please note that private property, wage labor, and markets are not on my list of liberal institutions.
I happen to defend markets (though not private property or wagr labor), but not particularly as a liberal.
And to get outside of the prison house of
> liberalism
Outside of liberalsim there is only fantasy (anarchism) or actual prison houses. Which elements of liberalism do you want to give up? Please specify and explain why it would be better to do without
competitive elections universal suffrage extensive civil and political liberties
as the only
> normative benchmark one needs an alternative theory
> not just of how prices
> are formed but also,
On my understanding of liberalism, price theory is stunningly irrelevant, about as pertinent as qunatum mechanics.
Btw whatever the merits of value theory, the one area where it is absolutely manifestly certain that it is an utter disaster is price theory. A theory of exploition? Not bad. A theory of crisis? Maybea piece of it. A theory of prices? Not even with the Borkewiecz solution to the transformation problem. You want real price theory? It's neoclassical.
and most importantly, of what
> the normative basis of
> liberal societies are founded upon.
Uh, respect for the individual? The freedom of all being the condition of the freedom of each? Of course in practice, I don't dispute that thsi has been limited because liberal societies have been capitalist. On the other hand the formerly existing socialist societies did a criminally appalling job of living up any humane principles that that they have have invoked, so there's not a lot of basis for sneering.
What a
> remarkable contribution the LTOV
> makes in this regard.
Do tell. I don't even see the connection. Getting rid of exploitation and classes, that would be great. But we don;t need value theory for that.
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