On 12/5/05, Michael Hirsch <mmh655 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Joanne:
>
> Well and good. You support a unitary, secular state, repatriation and
> reparations. And I support revolutionary socialism, mutual aid and hanging
> the last capitalist with the entrails of the last priest. I do! No sarcasm
> intended. Wanna join me? But in the meantime I'm trying to put out a
> minimally used and useful labor union newspaper, elect enough Democrats to
> the NYS Senate to shift control away from the Republicans and maybe see
> some antiwar candidates win in the midterm elections. I don't expect to see
> my long-run preferences happen in my lifetime--Maynard Keynes' observation
> that in the long run we're all dead is instructive. I'm no Zionist. I
> do argue that the creation of a Jewish statement was a huge mistake, one
> enough good people said was a mistake at the time, and that we are all
> paying the price for what some once saw as a necessary expedient. But that
> perspective has only a faint connection to politics, to really existing
> politics. Think the US will drop Israel? It will sooner drop the Saudi
> ruling families, which won't happen, either. So who, our egos aside, really
> cares what "we" support. Politics, then, isn't about "you." It's about what
> "we" can reasonably do with others. Being correct on Israel, like being
> correct on ridding the earth of religious obscurantists (and I like the
> sound of that one), is a self-congratulatory luxury I can no longer afford.
> Perhaps you have deeper pockets.
>
>
> On 12/5/05, Travis Fast <tfast at yorku.ca> wrote:
> >
> > Joanna, I agree with the principles of what you have written but it
> > would be a cold day in hell before the power bloc would contemplate a
> > single state even sans US funding. Perhaps after two decades of
> > sanctions like the south African case would change their minds but there
> > does not seem to be any unified stomach for this on the part of the
> > international community. So Chomsky's recognition of this is different
> > from Dershowitz' celebration. Lumping Chomsky in with the KKK is just
> > nonsense.
> >
> > Travis
> >
> > joanna wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I support a unitary secular state. I think this becomes much more
> > > realistic when the economic and military support for Israel by the
> > > U.S. comes to an end. I think the uprooted and oppressed Palestinians
> > > deserve full citizenship in a Palestine that includes both former
> > > Israelis and Palestinians. They also deserve reparations on the scale
> > > that the Jews received following WWII. Those reparations to be paid by
> > > the U.S. and Israel. That's what I support.
> > >
> > > The reality of a Middle Eastern peace will not happen so long as the
> > > Zionist, blood-based state of Israel continues. (Oh, and in case we
> > > need to establish credentials, I am the daughter of a Jew who was in a
> > > labor camp, lost his entire (and considerable) family fortune to the
> > > nazis, and I have relatives who live in Israel.)
> > >
> > > Joanna
> > >
> > > Michael Hirsch wrote:
> > >
> > >> Joanna:
> > >>
> > >> What exactly do you support? The ideal of a unitary secular state or
> > >> the reality of a Middle Eastern peace? If I thought for a moment that
> >
> > >> a secular bi-or multi-national state were possible in Palestine, I'd
> > >> jettison any support for a two-state solution. It cannot happen. Not
> > >> in our lifetimes. The author's airy talk about KKK politics is
> > >> gallery rhetoric and beside the point. Populations are routinely
> > >> routed in wars. It's lousy; it must stop. And it's the outcome of
> > >> military conflict, which must stop. Want to make any peace settlement
> >
> > >> contingent on the right of return? Want to resettle the Sudeten
> > >> Germans, too? How about the pro-fascist Crimean Tatars. Or is it just
> > >> the uprooted and oppressed Palestinians who deserve an ancestral
> > >> homeland? Chomsky hasn't become a Zionist cats paw and it's a dumb,
> > >> self-congratulatory if not self-referential argument to say he has.
> > >> So I ask again, what's to agree with?
> > >>
> > >> Mike Hirsch
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > ___________________________________
> > > http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
> > >
> >
> >
> > ___________________________________
> > http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
> >
>
>
>
> --
> ________________________________________
> `And these words shall then become
> Like oppression's thundered doom
> Ringing through each heart and brain,
> Heard again -- again -- again--
> `Rise like Lions after slumber
> In unvanquishable number--
> Shake your chains to earth like dew
> Which in sleep had fallen on you--
> Ye are many -- they are few.'
> --------Shelley, "The Mask of Anarchy:
> Written on the Occasion of the Massacre at Manchester" [1819]
>
>
-- ________________________________________ `And these words shall then become Like oppression's thundered doom Ringing through each heart and brain, Heard again -- again -- again-- `Rise like Lions after slumber In unvanquishable number-- Shake your chains to earth like dew Which in sleep had fallen on you-- Ye are many -- they are few.' --------Shelley, "The Mask of Anarchy: Written on the Occasion of the Massacre at Manchester" [1819] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <../attachments/20051205/3ebddf73/attachment.htm>