Reparation are not an attainable reform or an ultimate goal. It is a utopian reform, the worst possible combination. We can neither win it (so it is utopian in the bad sense) nor would it go to the root of the problem (so it is just a reform, which is OK if it is attainable). Apparently you think taht the Communist dictotorships were socialist, I don't, but few of us here would think that Stalinist tyranny was the goal we were fighting for -- what Stalinist regimes did or did not do is therefore sort of beside the point.
Struggling for reparations is calculated to alienate precisely the people whose support we want -- not in the general way that it might piss off someone -- but in the fruitless finger pointing way that suggests that all white people are guilty.
It is different from other reforms that might promote racial justice, like civil rights laws or affirmative action. because it is supposed to square past injustices rather than fix things going forward, therefore, if attained, which it won't be, the effect would be to make whites think, OK, we are square now, as opposed to thinking about wherther the measures we have taken are adequate to address the problems.
Finally the compariuon to income tax is flawed in os many ways it is almost impossible to account for them all. The basic point is that progressive taxation si not reparations paid from the rich to the poor. It reflects the idea that pre-tax income is not an unqualified entitlement, that society has prior claims on people's income to attain necessary goals such as financing public goods the market cannot provide (roads, schools, defense, etc.), to help provide for those who cannot provide for themselves -- not ina fingere-pointing way, saying, this the fault of the rich, but rather because people shouldn't starve on the street, and to do so in accord with ability to pay because addition money is worth less to rich than to the poor.
Anyway, I'm done. If you want to waste your time on this foolish, incoherent, and counterproductive activity, don'r let me stop you.
--- jthorn65 at sbcglobal.net wrote:
> On 10 Feb 2005 at 8:29, andie nachgeborenen wrote:
> >
> > The government. Which pays out taxes leveled on
> the
> > general population. Including African AMericans
> and
> > other beneficiaries of reparations. And excludes
> the
> > disproportionately white super rich who can
> structure
> > their investments to avoid paying much (if any)
> taxes.
> > Lovely. The more I hear about this idea the dumber
> I
> > think it is.
>
> What is dumb is using this reason to oppose
> reparations. One could just as easily oppose
> income tax on the same basis. The super rich avoid
> it making it unfair so why bother.
> The point of reparations would be to structure it so
> the "super rich" could not avoid paying their
> portion. What you really mean to say is the more you
> hear what you want to hear, the more
> your already held preconception is reinforced.
>
> > Of course the fundamental objections are that it
> is
> > totally utopian in the bad sense and would be
> utterly
> > counterproductive. It will never happen this side
> of
> > socialism (when it will not be necessary, as
> opposed
> > to whatever policies would be useful to make sure
> that
> > historically oppressed groups benefit equally with
> > everyone from the new system), it pointlessly
> stirs up
> > racial resentment by guilt-tripping the white
> working
> > class and middle classes, and if it ever did
> happen,
> > those groups and maybe others would say, OK, we're
> all
> > square now and don't need to do anything more.
>
> So now you're claiming only socialist governments
> can and therefore have paid reparations?
> You know this is not true so why write:
> "It will never happen this side of socialism"
> We certainly wouldn't want the recepients of any
> benefits of African slavery or Indian slavery
> and land confiscations to feel guilty. That would
> certainly suck and be pointless.
> No point in doing anything constructive since with
> every step taken forward someone might
> say: "OK, we're all square now and don't need to do
> anything more."
> If you want to oppose reparations surely you can do
> better than this?
>
> John Thornton
>
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