CB: There is a puzzle as to why the oppressed classes going back to Roman times would develop this prejudice against the ruling classes.
Brian: Or could it be that they hated queers and then associated being queer with another group they hated: the ruling classes. Which hatred begat which?
CB: I don't think the hate of the ruling classes originated because the ruling classes had same-sex practices, but because the ruling classes oppressed and exploited them.
What might be the basis for hating same-sexers ( assuming for the moment that they did hate same-sexers ? I mean a basis independent of associating same sexing with the hated ruling classes.
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CB: What is the material basis for it?
Brian: Maybe jealousy over the fact that queers could have sexual pleasure without the need for marriage or the possibility of procreation? I have het male friends who think the best part of being gay is being able to avoid pregnancy. Also, when I was a teenager, I would hold it over my male friends that I could have all the sex I wanted and never get anyone pregnant.
CB: Yea, I think the contraceptive advantage of same-sexing might have something to do with same-sex practices in a lot of times and places.
Seems a stretch to say it is the origin of all hate of same-sexers down through the ages, but perhaps we can research it.
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CB: Seems likely that the Stalinists reinstituted anti-homosexual laws because they thought it would impact population growth, and the earlier Cuban position followed this line, I think.
Brian: Seems like a straight case of straight hate to me.
CB: Well, I think you should make more of an argument as to why there is just independently existing straight hate based on jealousy of the natural contraception of same-sexing, or some other basis.
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CB: You ignore this and continue to claim "Castro is oppressing homosexuals". This seems foolish on your part.
Brian: Well, according to my queer friends in Cuba and those who have been lucky enough to escape, there is no equality for them as queers. They live under watch. Either Castro or the regime he heads or somebody is creating this oppression. It isn't just materializing from thin air. And if Castro was pro-queer, why doesn't he do something to end this oppression?
CB: According to your theory, it might not be in the government or Party, but in the population en masse as an old idea based on jealousy or something. In other words, the audience to be persuaded is a large number of the people of Cuba, not the leaders. Doesn't seem likely that the Communist Party is forcing the Cuban people to be anti-gay. Most likely, the Party members are the most modern in attitude on this.
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CB:Instead, you want to hang on to the past so you can redbait.
Brian:I am focusing on the present oppression that my friends experience. For me, the actual experiences of queers has more weight than the words of a het (and after all, don't we all create our reality through language? So Castro uses a language that creates a non-repressive atmosphere, while the experienced reality is that queers are neither equal or free in Cuba.
CB: You and your friends' best bet would be to become emphatic and ACTIVE socialist revolutionaries and anti-imperialists, both for ending discrimination against them and because zero tolerance for capitalism is at least as important as your demand for zero tolerance of homophobia.
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CB:Do you think people want to be like monkeys or rams?
Brian: Whether they want to or not is irrelevant. The question is: are they like monkeys and rams? And if they are, to what extent.
CB: I'm counting on humans not being like monkeys in establishing dominance hierarchies expressed through sexual dominance. It would be a problematic basis for explaining same-sexing among human males.
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CB: By ignoring the other issues of oppression in the Cuban context, you are less likely to help any oppressed Cuban queers, because the Cuban's are more likely to put your protest in the same bag as the other opponents of the Cuban revolution.
Brian: Not the Cubans I am friends with. They hate that queer Americans (especially men) come there and exploit young queers.
CB: I haven't said it because I have no evidence, but this issue of same-sexing associated with imperialists ( maybe pirates ? I have no evidence), or other dominators, may underlie some of the folk hate you mention. This is that "Yanqui thing" I alluded to.
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CB: A better approach would be to be pro-Cuban revolution, and then raise your concerns as a friend.
Brian: I am pro-Cuban revolution
CB: You might want to get exaggeratedly so, if you have some special interest in helping queers in Cuba.
Just using your posts to this list as a measure, one wouldn't really notice that you are pro-Cuban revolution nearly as much as you are pro-queer liberation. IF you really want to get heard in Cuba, u should consider upping your pro-revolutionary persona. Ends may not justify means, but means matter in whether you attain your ends.
Brian: and anti-queer oppression. Ends do not justify means in my world and Silence = Death. You act as if you can only be one or the other. I believe we can oppose both imperialism and queer oppression. If Castro was smart he would hold queer parades and celebrations. He certainly would attract more progressives. Those imperialists who are against him are not going to hate him any more, and the fact that he currently oppresses queers may be the only thing they like about him, since queers are the only thing they hate worse than Castro.
CB: My advice is concentrate on your own activities, and don't try to arrange Fidel's practice, especially as you are a Yankee ( I mean so am I), with nowhere near the revolutionary accomplishments of Castro. I mean if this is not all a theoretical discussion, and you are really going to do a lot of activity regarding discrimination against queers in Cuba.
Of course, you have the right and freedom to dis Fidel all you want, but that will likely have the opposite effect in really helping queers in Cuba.
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Brian: Just as you said you listen to women about their sexual needs, I listen to my queer friends in Cuba. They tell me they are discouraged that leftists outisde of Cuba pay so little attention to their lack of freedom and do not raise the issue of their equality.
CB: Get you a Che t-shirt and hey YOU can be their leftist friend outside Cuba.
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Brian: I have found that applying presure is the only way to gets hets to give up their privilege. But then pressure is usually the only way to create change. Afrikaaners didn't give up power because they thought it would be nice to share.
CB: Fredrick Douglass on power and all that. However, the Cubans are the opposite of the Afrikanners. If you go in to it as if they are like Afrikaaners you will fail. You better really believe the Cuban People and Party are the exact opposite of the Afrikanners or you are done for, believe me. You can insult the Cuban revolutionaries all you want, to rag people like me who are Communists, but you will only achieve the self-satisfaction of insulting someone while you will undermine any project to help queers in Cuba.
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CB: On the other hand, I suppose it is unlikely you are marching in front of the Cuba Interest Section. Maybe you only discuss this on this list.
Brian: Oh, no. I discuss it all over the place. On my gay list I recently brought it up in the context that the embargo against Cuba was like the embargo against queers: in each case conservatives are interfering with the well-being of people by interfering with their access to items of material well-being. I received an e-mail from the moderator that I should be more considerate of the feelings of others and that politics does not always belong on a gay discussion list. Kinda like you in reverse Charles, now that I think of it. I should approach the men on the list as a friend and not bring pressure to bear on their oppressive imperialist politics.
CB: You go ,Brian
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CB: The explanation is that you have issues that do not permit you to _understand_ sexuality clearly, so my perfectly sensible discussion of sexual issues doesn't get through to you.
Brian: And those issues are? Don't be coy Charles.
CB: What's wrong with being coy ?
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Brian: Charles, it is not a question of who was least oppresive. There should not have been oppression in the first place. Next thing you know you'll be saying that plantations in Alabama were better to their slaves than plantations in Mississippi...
...I didn't say that they did. I noted that centrally planned economies, just like market economies, persecuted queers. Obviously, neither path is queer-friendly. The question is can either path ever be queer-friendly?
CB: I was responding on point as it was framed on this thread: a comparison between centrally planned economies and markets
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Brian: I do not know enough about communism to be for or against it. What I am against is queer oppression. Saying that Cuba is making progress is an empty statement , like Michael's "Queers are doing as well as can be expected." Just as we should not let up on George Bush when he promotes homophobia, we should not let up when anyone else does so. Friends don't let friends bash queers.
CB: I'd say it's a better strategy to praise progress as a way to get more of it.
You would do well to know enough about communism to intervene in Cuban society. A single issue approach is "dull", vanilla ice cream politics
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Brian:Rights for queers are part of the South African Constitution. They should also be part of the US Constitution, the Cuban Constitution and every other constitution. If a governemnt is serious about ending homophobia, then queer rights will be in their laws and constiution.
^^^^^ CB: It is imperialistic for you a Yank to make demands on the Cubans about their Constitution. This is a main flaw in your approach.