LOL! that wasn't my point at all.
>There are, I think, other factors that can affect someone's "readiness" to
>hear what a left critique has to say, (eventually) agree with it, and help
>out practically (which is another matter entirely). But I don't think
>Turbulo or Carrol were leaving them out simply because they thought those
>factors were pointless, and all that was necessary was to shout The Truth
>from a mountaintop to the grateful masses below.
>
><snip>
>
>>there's people's _subjective_ perception, but as Marx showed, there is
>>also a way to look at the issue of _classes_ that really does have to do
>>with relation to the means of production.
>
>Subjective perception does matter and does act like a material force,
>sure, but does that put it on the same level of truth or falsity of the
>"actual situation" as, for example, a class analysis?
as I explained, that _is_ class analysis.
>Or a psychological analysis, or any other kind of scientific (broadly
>defined vs. simple subjective perception) observation? How does one go
>about trying to show what's really happening in the world (or at least the
>most likely reason(s) if you accept people's subjective perceptions as
>having about an equal "weight" as an analysis?
>
>>Even Marx didn't say it was simply as either you either own them or you
>>don't.
>
>But he did get into false consciousness (of the actual state of affairs)
>at some point, and that does have something to do with this discussion.
But? Again, you write as if the two approaches contradict one another.
>>Marx only said that, as crises advanced the world would eventually be
>>composed of two classes at a standoff, with the myriad classes eventually
>>taking one side or the other.
>
>And he also said that part of the task of communists (no reason other
>lefties can't do this too; it broadly serves their interests, I think) is
>to form the working class into a self-conscious proletariat. To do this
>you have to keep working to undermine what people have accepted as reality.
>
>Trick is to do this without getting snobby, lecturing, hectoring, etc.
good luck with that. ping me if you need any advice.
>And plenty of people (never mind lefties) need more work on this skill.
anytime, anywhere. just ping me! LOL
ta!
kelley
"We live under the Confederacy. We're a podunk bunch of swaggering pious hicks."
--Bruce Sterling