i think it's a hootinanny that someone, Paul, simply describing the patrons of he deli as MC was somehow evidence that he didn't understand that, in the end, we are all wage slaves. It is as if _talking_ only and ever about the WC and expunging the phrase "middle class" or "managerial/professional workers" from our dialogues will change anything. It won't. Carrol replies to you by discussing SUV drivers and minimum wage workers. Just another way to say the _same_ damn thing. Paul wasn't engaging in any sort of class analysis. He was simply talking about the situation. Had he used the word 'strata' he would have conveyed exactly the same idea and Carrol wouldn't have hit the roof. And Paul _still_ wouldn't have had to be disabused of the notion that we are all wage slaves.
now, some people have a problem with idealism. if'n y'ask me, it's idealism to think that simply uttering the phrase, middle class, is the problem.
>>as I explained, that _is_ class analysis.
>
>Your words here:
>
>>>there's people's _subjective_ perception, but as Marx showed, there is
>>>also a way to look at the issue of _classes_ that really does have to do
>>>with relation to the means of production.
>
>suggested to me you were putting subjective perception and class analysis
>on the same plane.
I'm saying that there were CLASSES, PLURAL and MORE THAN TWO, in Marx's analyses of capitlist society. Carrol has a problem with anyone suggesting the same about today's situation, by doing exactly what Marx did. Some people spend their time analyzing how subjective perception of your interests are related to your relationship to the means of production. that IS a form of class analysis. It's asking: "why don't people recognize that they are all wage slaves?" Understanding that is kinda important if you want to talk to people.
>Sorry, but you misunderstand me here. I think you took my words as a
>personal insult when none was intended.
not at all. Ian might have said "reflexivity alert."
otherwise, you made clear a long time ago you have nothing but contempt for me with a pathetic offlist to pugliese. don't waste my time.
kelley
"We live under the Confederacy. We're a podunk bunch of swaggering pious hicks."
--Bruce Sterling