> Ravi:
>>as for immigration policies: last i checked, at least some western
>>european countries (germany, for example, IIRC) do not even permit me
>>(brown skin) to become a permanent resident or citizen.
> Wojtek
> The US is not much different as most brown skin people seeking legal status
> can attest.>
Wojtek is wrong about this. The US accepts more "brown" people than the next four highest immigration destination countries combined. Germany's immigration policies give much greater preference to eastern European whites over "brown" people than US policy does.
> > The US has one of the lowest population density in the world, but unlike
> > Sweden, Canada or Russia - most of its territory is habitable. In
> fact, the
> > Netherlands is over 15 times more densely populated than the US, the UK and
> > Germany - eight times, Denmark and France - 4 times. Yet, these countries
> > collectively take more immigrants than the US! [Wojtek]
>
>not accusing you of lying, but can you provide a source please. it would
>help if the numbers were broken down by origin. if france took in a
>whole lot of algerians, that should ideally not count. [Ravi]
Wojtek is correct in this statement because he includes Germany which is number two in the world after the US in accepting immigrants. Also keep in mind Germany liberalized its immigration policy primarily with regards to allowing eastern Europeans to take up residence. You can get a list of immigration broken down by country of origin from: http://www.oecd.org/document/51/0,2340,en_2649_33931_34063091_1_1_1_1,00.html Select "first file" and there you are!
> > Of course, the issue of immigration is far more complex than the physical
> > capacity to accept newcomers. Few people would argue that immigrants can
> > vastly enrich the recipient's country culture - but it can also
> threaten its
> > most basic institutions. It is one thing when immigrants open, say, a
> > Mediterranean restaurant or publish books grounded in Mediterranean
> literary
> > tradition - but it is a very different thing when immigrants demand that
> > "their" women be exempt from western laws and subjected to Islamic law
> > instead or when they start assassinating writers whose writings they find
> > objectionable. [Wojtek]
>
>so, in the words of rumsfeld, the world is a messy place. in the larger
>scheme of things, why should western laws or mediterranean culture enjoy
>protections? [Ravi]
In western countries western cultures should be respected and immigrant customs honored so long as they are not harmful. If one immigrates to a western country be prepared for that reality. A good rule of thumb for myself has been to honor customs of others as long as they do no harm to individuals or deny them their freedom. If your religion dictates you pray facing a specific direction a specific number of times a day no one is harmed by allowing it. If your religious doctrine teaches that no man can speak to your wife except through the husband or brother this denies a woman her freedom and will not be honored. There is no right to oppress others and to speak of any need to honor any cultural norms that deny freedom to others is not something I would think many progressives would be comfortable with. This applies to anyone not just immigrants. Christian Promise Keepers who advocate any position similar to that mentioned above should also be opposed. In most aspects of life putting this into practice does not require any particularly difficult mental gymnastics.
> > And then - why does any country, rich or poor, have any moral or legal
> > obligation to accept immigrants? [Wojtek]
>
>if by country you mean the current residents, then why not pose the
>question in reverse? what moral or legal ground exists for current
>squatters to deny access to a shared resource to others? [Ravi]
If the "current squatters" have no greater right to the resources of the land they are currently occupying then I may safely assume you believe that the rights of US transnationals to extract resources in Brazil or Nigeria is equal to the right of the respective indigenous persons of those lands to do the same?
John Thornton
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