[lbo-talk] more on the bisex flap

andie nachgeborenen andie_nachgeborenen at yahoo.com
Fri Jul 15 14:07:51 PDT 2005


I don't have Posner's Sex and Raeson in front of me, but I recently read it and recall his discussion of sexual preference as being historically anf otherwise informed. As I recall, Posner aegues that the incidence of male homsexuality is lower than the 10% figure he attributesto Kiney, something more like 3%, but that a lot of men are "opportunistic" homosexuals in certain circumtances, namely, that they will prefer a pretty boy to a less attractive (by prevailing stnadrds, whatever those are) girl, if a more attrcative girl is not available.

Discussing pederasty in ancient Greece and Rome (and the ancient world generally), Posner attributes the prevelance of opportunistic homosexuality to the absence of "companionate" marriage, the idea that women are supposed to be more than just the mother of your children but also a life companion of some sort -- I'm missing a piece, but I can't recall precisely how the argument goes.

Maybe it's that in pre-companionate marriage societies like Greece and Rome, marriageable women )as opposed to prostitutes, courtesans, and slaves, and rape victims in war) were relatively sequestered to protect paternity, thus comparatively unavailable, and so it was easier for people who had some homsexual preference (Kinsey 2-5s, 1 being totally hetero, 6 being totally homo -- I hope I have not reversed the scale)to have sex and indeed loving relationships with young men who were comparatively girlish looking, but if women were more avaialble they'd tend to prefer sex with women. It is striking that Greek (anyway) pederasty was generally between adolescent boys and men in their 20s and 30. I may have the argument wrong, I'll look it up.

Opportunistic homosexuality is of course more common in polygamous societies, where dominant or wealthy males reduce the total availability of women, or in situations like prison, the military, or other institutions where there are no women.

This sort of reasoning tends to support the idea that genuine bisexuality -- Kinsey 3s, who are genuine indifferent between men and women as sex objects -- is comparatively rare. Opportunistic male homosexuals are more likely to be Kinsey 2s, who'd prefer a suitable woman if one were available. (Kinsey 4s might be opportunistic heterosexuals, who'd prefer a pretty girl to an unsuitable boy, but would prefer a boy other things being equal.)

At the risk of being execrated as a reactionary, I'd say this is about what one would except sociobiologically, assuming what I think is well-supported, that sexual preference has a very large genetic compenent, that heterosexuality is adaptive, but that there is some group selection for homosexuality for some reason or other -- Posner and others speculate that (genuine, non-opportunistic) gays are less likely to reproduce on their own but more likely to care for the children of their heterosexual kin -- sort of a useful bachelor uncle theory.

Posner notes that companionate marriage tends to collapse as the hold of religion on society weakens and as women become less dependent on men for their economic security either because of labor market changes or social welare benefits. If that reduced the availability of women to men, it might increase opportunistic homosexuality or the bisexuality of Kinsey 2s. I am not sure why those changes might reduce the availability of women, though. The Scandanavian countries are irreligious, social democxratic, have low incidences of marriage at all (something like 85% of children in Sweden are born out of wedlock, I think I once read), and I believe are sexually libertine,

Btw, Posner thinks the statistics indicate that true lesbianism is even rarer than true homosexuality, about half the incidence (Again, sociobiologically predictable -- maiden aunts would be useful, but taking women out of the reproductive pool would probably be more counteradaptive than taking men out), so it's not that in sexually libertine societies there are fewer women available to men because women are freer to be lesbians -- they are freer, but they are less likely to take advantage of the oppotunity except ocvcasionally and experimentally.

I should mention that Posner is theoretically a sexual libertarian himself, who dispises anti-gay prejudice of any variety. The long and short of his theory is that true bisexuality exists but is likely to be very rare.

--- Doug Henwood <dhenwood at panix.com> wrote:


> <http://gaycitynews.com/gcn_428/firestormover.html>
>
> Gay City News - Volume 75, Number 28 | 14 - 20 July
> 2005
>
> Firestorm Over Bisexuality in Times
>
> GLAAD, Task Force assail story suggesting most
> bis not owning up to their orientation
>
> By ANDY HUMM
>
> The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force has
> joined bisexual advocacy groups in condemning a
> front-page story in The New York Times' science
> section on July 5 titled "Straight, Gay or
> Lying?: Bisexuality Revisited."
>
> The article said that a new study that "casts
> doubt on whether true bisexuality exists, at
> least in men."
>
> Matt Foreman, executive director of the Task
> Force, said, "We remain stunned that The New York
> Times science section would carry such a shoddy,
> sensationalistic and downright insulting story.
> It and the profoundly flawed 'study' it purports
> to cover are laced with biased premises,
> misstatements and inaccuracies. It equates sexual
> orientation with sexual arousal, as supposedly
> measured by a crude device-considered highly
> suspect by researchers-in the hands of an
> individual with a long history of controversial
> research."
>
> The study by psychologists in Chicago and Toronto
> recruited 101 young adult men from "gay and
> alternative publications." "Thirty-three of the
> men identified themselves as bisexual, 30 percent
> as straight and 38 percent as homosexual," the
> newspaper wrote. The men were shown male-male and
> female-female porn and their genitals were wired
> for signs of arousal. A third of the men showed
> no signs of arousal at all.
>
> The biggest finding was that of the
> self-identified bisexual men, 75 percent "had
> arousal patterns identical to those of gay men;
> the rest were indistinguishable from
> heterosexuals."
>
> The Task Force challenged the equation of arousal
> with orientation, noting that "sexual orientation
> is defined by a combination of cognitive and
> physical responses, not just whether one's
> genitals respond in a certain way to
> pornography." Since the researchers' thesis is
> that "for men, arousal is orientation," the Task
> Force asked, "Does this mean that one-third of
> the participants had no sexual orientation?"
>
> Sheeri Kirtzer of the Bisexual Resource Exchange
> said, "Bisexuality exists and identity doesn't
> need science to back it up." She cited bisexual
> activist Loni Ka'ahumani's dictum, "It's not
> about the plumbing, it's the electricity."
>
> Kirtzer called the Times article "hurtful,"
> especially for young people coming to terms with
> their sexuality. She also noted that this
> research was done three years ago and has yet to
> be published, which suggests that it might not
> stand up to peer review.
>
> The Task Force also attacks The Times for
> uncritically accepting research from J. Michael
> Bailey, one of the authors of the study, whose
> "conclusions and methods have been relentlessly
> challenged by academics and activists.
>
> The Times story also left out a key conclusion of
> the study: "In terms of behavior and identity,
> bisexual men clearly exist." It also failed to
> include comment from any bisexual leaders.
>
> The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation
> noted that it "relies heavily on a single study
> whose senior researcher has a career marked by
> ethics controversies and eugenics proposals-facts
> that were not presented to readers." They were
> especially critical of the fact that Benedict
> Carey, the Times reporter, "uses the phrase 'true
> bisexuality,' which suggests that people with
> bisexual behavior and identity might still not
> qualify as 'true' bisexuals."
>
> Carey e-mailed at least one academic in June, "I
> am going to write soon about studies challenging
> people's self-described sexual identities, and
> this will include the flap over Bailey and his
> book." But the controversy over Bailey was not
> mentioned in his Times article.
>
> GLAAD points out that in 2001, Bailey wrote that
> if it became possible for parents to determine
> sexual orientation in utero, "selecting for
> heterosexuality seems to be morally acceptable."
> In his "The Man Who Would be Queen: The Science
> of Gender-Bending and Transsexualism," GLAAD
> said, Bailey wrote that "transsexual women are
> not female-gendered people born with male bodies,
> but 'are extremely feminine gay men or are sexual
> festishists who are erotically obsessed with the
> image of themselves as women."
>
> Some of the transsexual women featured in his
> book filed complaints against him, contending
> that he did not get their consent to be studied.
>
> AmericaBlog.com reported that Bailey has written
> that most transsexuals are "especially motivated"
> to shoplift and "especially suited to
> prostitution." The website also said that Bailey
> was forced to step down as chair of the
> psychology department at Northwestern University
> in Evanston, Illinois because of ethics charges
> related to his research. Gay campus groups at the
> school have urged students not to cooperate with
> his research.
>
> Toby Usnik, director of public relations for The
> Times, said in an e-mail, "We thought the article
> was thorough and fair. It is, of course, only one
> part of the coverage we will continue to do on
> this issue. To that end, you may wish to note the
> letters pasted below from yesterday's Science
> section."
>
> While most of the letter lambasted The Times or
> the study, notable figures in the community have
> also stood up to caution against a rush to
> judgment.
>
> Chandler Burr, a gay writer from New York, called
> the response from gay and bisexual groups
> "hysterical and anti-science," comparing it with
> reactions from right-wing Christians to "studies
> showing that homosexuality is an inborn
> orientation." He asserted that "those of us
> familiar with the scientific literature have
> known since, basically, forever" that
> "bisexuality may not exist among human males."
>
> Syndicated sex columnist Dan Savage wrote this
> week in his column, "The sad fact is that male
> bisexuality is rare, much more so than female
> bisexuality. While there are a lot of guys out
> there having bisexual experiencesŠ there's a
> difference between someone's true sexual
> orientation and their sexual capabilities."
>
> Gay columnist Wayne Besen, a former spokesperson
> for the Human Rights Campaign, wrote this week,
> "Shutting down debate, hounding the media and
> savaging science are not in the best interests of
> GLBT people."
>
> Besen acknowledged flaws in this study, but said
> "this does not change the startling fact that the
> bisexual subjects in this one study had a
> different arousal pattern that they professed."
>
> But lesbian columnist Susie Bright wrote, "This
> new study not only distorts what we know about
> the variety and spectrum of human sexual desire,
> it also offends in its deliberate ignorance about
> the nature of erotic fantasy itself."
>
> Dr. Joan Roughgarden, a professor of biology at
> Stanford University, wrote, "In the 300 or more
> known vertebrate species with natural
> homosexuality, all combine heterosexual with
> homosexual relations. Humans are not likely to
> differ from other species in this regard."
>
> John Craig, a professional counselor from
> Fairfax, VA, wrote that he has worked with
> bisexual men for 15 years
>
> "Not one of them has ever identified openly as
> bisexual," he wrote. "If any did, the
> consequences would be devastating. These men
> would never volunteer for the kind of study"
> reported in The Times.
>
> Referring to the fact that subjects were "tested"
> by showing them porn, Catherince Gaffney of
> Philadelphia wrote, "If our sexual preferences
> were best detected by who we look at in
> pornography, wouldn't pretty much everybody be
> attracted to mildly unattractive people who live
>
=== message truncated ===

____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs



More information about the lbo-talk mailing list