[lbo-talk] Finding the elephant in the room

[ravi]

On 07/19/05 10:22, Charles Brown wrote:
> uvj :
> 
> It is for _Iraqis_ to decide how quickly the US withdraws. If _Iraqis_ want
> the immediate US withdrawal it's fine with me.
> 
> ^^^^^
> CB: The channels for us finding out what Iraqis want are not reliable.
> However, no, I wouldn't say that I, as an American, do not have a say in
> what the U.S. does.  The history of the U.S. military interventions around
> the world is such that I judge that the U.S.  must get out of Iraq
> immediately.
> 
> ^^^^
> 
>>Looking at the larger effects and picture, I believe immediate U.S./British
>>withdrawal will save the most lives even there in West Asia.>
> 
> We can't decide for Iraqis.
> 
> ^^^^
> CB: We Americans have some say in deciding for Americans, who are the ones
> doing the war on Iraq.
> 
> ^^^^^^
> 
>  I wrote that_Iraqis_ may want _some transitional arrangements_ to preserve
> peace and stability. Transitional arrangements don't necessarily imply
> longer US presence. 
> 
> ^^^^
> CB: Well, yea. Transitional arrangements _without_ the U.S. involved.  Send
> some Swiss Guards to Iraq.
> 
> ^^^^^^
> 
> It could mean the UN led force consisting of troops from Indonesia,
> Bangladesh etc., provided _Iraqis_ want that kind of force. We can't decide
> how Iraq is to be liberated.
> ^^^^
>
> CB: "We" can decide it won't be U.S. troops who are involved.
>

CB, you response is shockingly akin to what i might hear from a
right-winger. which has been my puzzlement throughout the "bring back
the troops" effort from the left. i doubt that CB or yoshie share the
right's sentiments. IMHO, however, they need to express their position
better. definitely better than CB's words above, which are dangerously
close to: we the US will go fuck with any country at our pleasure and
leave it in any state we wish. [perhaps that's just my misreading]

i tend to agree with uvj, or at least feel that the possibility for all
out chaos (afghanistan style) post US withdrawal is a real one. and i
think chris doss' point about familiarity with the situation on the
ground is required to make the right pragmatic (not ideological) call.
in particular, i believe multiple polls of iraqis [yes, admittedly not
the most reliable tool] have shown that they prefer the US presence (now
that the US has created the mess).

the swiss guard did not create the mess in iraq. the US did. if as an
american you wish to have a say in US troop involvement, it seems
logical to suggest that you have, equally, a responsibility for the mess
that the US has created. may i suggest you qualify your post with viable
alternatives, so it (your post) does not reduce to merely [the
expression of] an attempt to save american lives.

	--ravi