Miles Jackson:
That's the crucial question: is it true in human history that women who had orgasms during intercourse tended to have better reproductive success? CB's argument assumes that female orgasm must have emerged because it encouraged women to more frequently have sex and thus reproduce. However, for many female primates (including humans!), the act of intercourse does not automatically or even typically provoke orgasms. To put it bluntly, a primate male slamming away for a few minutes doesn't necessarily get anywhere near the clitoris, and thus no female orgasm. If female orgasm was the kind of obvious adaptation CB suggests, intercourse--not direct clitoral stimulation--would be the quickest and easiest way for a woman to have an orgasm.
^^^^^ CB: To your crucial question, isn't it obvious that women who had orgasms during intercourse would be likely to have intercourse more and thereby likely to have more reproductive fitness ? What you mean is that most women don't have orgasms during intercourse , or as you say "typically" don't. I think I have to dispute this claim of some social science. Maybe the sample of males stimulators in the social scientific studies are not representative of all males, I don't know. Something is fishy here.
I'd say that intercourse wouldn't have to be the quickest way to have an orgasm , just one of the few ways to have an orgasm for my argument. Specifically, having intercourse would be a better way to have an orgasm than not having intercourse ( except for masturbation , perhaps). Men might be able to have an orgasm faster by masturbation than intercourse, but that doesn't mean a main way for men having orgasm's is not to have intercourse.
Also, sex ,as I am sure you know, is a kind of group of "moves" , of which intercourse is just one. In other words, the male can obviously stimulate the clitoris by hand and other means other than intercourse as part of the whole episode, shall we call it. This is especially likely given that it makes the female overall more receptive to intercourse. The physical proximity of the clitoris and the vagina undermines the notion of clitoral arousal as alienated from vaginal arousal. (Is it ok for me to be discussing all these details ?). In fact, it is hard for me to see how clitorial stimulation other than by intercourse does not stimulate desire for intercourse in the female, typically.
I'm not so sure that most male primates down through history wouldn't be real skillful at giving a female primate orgasms by intercourse, especially in the early era we are talking about.
By the way, I don't know how to say this politely, but a little bird told me that ( lots of ) female humans do have orgasms frequently from intercourse (contra frequent discussions contrary wise). I mean without direct clitoral stimulation having orgasm. But besides that , the idea that clitoral stimulation is just alien to simultaneous intercourse or not sort of in affinity and common conjunction with intercourse, or interactive with intercourse just doesn't jive with common experience.
^^^^^^^
In short, I still think female orgasms are a spandrel. If women were motivated by solely by orgasms to have sexual activity, let's face it--vaginal intercourse wouldn't be anywhere near the top of the list.
^^^^^ CB: So, what do you think it is spandrel-like to ? What trait is the trait of orgasmic ability a sideeffect to ?
Also, what is your position on male orgasms ? Do you consider them spandrels or directly selected for through more likely being had through intercourse than masterbation ? Are you saying male orgasmic ability is a trait that is the opposite of female orgasmic ability, in that male orgasmic ability is directly selected for and not a spandrel ?
I have to respectfully disagree based on my evidence talking with women about this. A couple women looked at me like I was crazy when I related this idea that intercourse doesn't give orgasms frequently. Maybe I'll run this by them and get some direct quotes in response. Somehow I don't think these women are freaks ,so to speak.
So, to me, the "lets face it " comes out way the opposite of what you say here. It seems enormously likely to me that throughout history intercourse has been a main way to give men and women orgasms.
> To put it
> vulgarly, "fucking ability is more important than fighting ability in
> measuring Darwinian fitness."
But even more important than "fucking ability": support and nurturing of offspring after they're born. --My reproductive success is pretty low if I fuck many women, have many offspring, and they all die because I'm not around to protect and feed them, yes?
^^^^^ CB: Yes, reproduction is more than intercourse, but no need to shy away from the fact that intercourse is still a necessary step. No intercourse, no nurturing to do. There's no contradiction between lots of fucking and lots of taking care of each other. In fact, they sort of go together. Note: the women are taking care of the men as much as the men are taking care of the women.
As to the role of males in childcare, to refer to the importance of intercourse is not to denigrate the importance of childcare. It's just the focus here has been speculation as to whether there is a likely scenario by which the trait of orgasmic ability is directly selected for rather than a spandrel. I'm not sure what the male role in childcare and protection has to do with orgasms.
But ancient kinship structure is nothing if not this caring of everybody for everybody, lots of sharing. These families of all adults of both sexes in a complex social and interdependent system is the essence of the origin of human society, especially with passing the culture on to the next generation especially during childrearing.
As a side note, the ancient women might have been able to feed themselves pretty well. That's why they call it "hunting and gathering",a division of labor. I have this idea of the women doing a lot of the "gathering". I don't see why women couldn't do some hunting too, "close to the campsite", of less quick prey. But I don't want to suggest that it wasn't all extremely interconnected and generous exchange of subsistence goods across genders, i.e. communist.