Miles Jackson
Again, I gotta ask: if female organism is a straightforward adaptation, shouldn't we see a higher prevalence of "orgasm during intercourse" women? According to CB's adaptionist story about female orgasm is a means of encouraging sexual activity and thus procreation, shouldn't all the women who were genetically predisposed not to have orgasm during sex have been culled out of the human species long ago?
^^^^ CB: Here's a reply on these. The critical difference 100,000's of thousands of years ago would have been between the humans and the precursor-human species. The precursors had 0% orgasm from intercourse ( this inference is based on modern studies that primates don't have orgasms ; see Yoshie's post; otherwise we are discussing how whatever prehuman species in which orgasm originated). As between some orgasm and none, that's enough to give differential fertility. In selection, a little difference can be a big difference.
Second, these issues operate long ago, with small populations when a little more intercourse can make a big difference. Today and for a long time, with large populations, the human species can abide people without orgasm capacity just like it can have a lot of nearsighted people who would not have made it when the heavy duty selection was going on.
Finally, the modern women not having orgasms in the studies today doesn't mean they don't have the physical capacity. May just be a reflection of poor stimulation skills of modern men, as noted, and/ or sexual self-repression of modern women who are pissed at the individual man for particular stuff unrelated to sexual skills or this individual man as a representative of men in general for male supremacy. I missed how many orgasms they have from masturbation.
Somebody should ask, well, you only have orgasms 30% of the time you have sex. How often do you enjoy sex with vaginal stimulation even though it doesn't reach orgasm ? Does the possibility of orgasm, even though not every time, induce you to have sex ?
On the other hand, there are sort of "battle of the sexes" issues impacting this. The more women say they enjoy sex with men, the less can be bargained for in the "accounting" of the whole relationship. So, there is a motivation to under report. The same is true for men in reverse, by the way. In other words, there is rationale for some women promoting the idea that men "get" more out of sex than women ( and for some men to promote the idea that women get more out of sex than men, as well)
^^^^^^^
This looks more and more like an excellent example of G's spandrels to me.
Miles
^^^^^ CB: Spandrel of what ? A spandrel has to be the side effect of another trait that is selected directly.
Looks more and more like a straight up "traits that makes you have fertile intercourse more are likely to be selected for". That is still the most elegant explanation.
Calling it a spandrel is not an alternative explanation if you don't spell out how it is a spandrel to something else.