[lbo-talk] Rationality of the Masses

[Jeffrey Fisher]

On 6/19/05, Carrol Cox <cbcox at ilstu.edu> wrote:
> 
> 
> Michael Pollak wrote:
> >
> > >
> > Now imagine an alternative universe in which we fully supported them, in the
> > sense that we identified with them, we considered them to be our side. That
> > would entirely change the playing field.
> 
> Michael, I haven't digested yet your first two long posts, but I think
> they are invaluable whether in the end they are right or wrong. But this
> is either so general that I can't understand it, or it is serious
> empirical bullshit.
> 
> You seem to be saying that we (leftists in some undefined sense of
> "left") should join the Methodist Church and help Methodist liberals
> defeat Methodist homophobes. 

this is a joke, right?

<snip> 
> For it is simply false. Almost all leftists have always been more than
> willing to work with -- in fact have worked with -- any xtians who were
> engated in struggling for progressive causes. What are you talking
> about?

this seems to me a fair question.

off the top of my head, i see two possible responses: (1) he's talking
about chuck. (2) it's something else.

if it's not chuck, that can only be because we think chuck -- wrt
religion -- represents a small minority in left organizing. right?
because that kind of hostility in sufficient strength would constitute
a reasonable response to your question?

so let's say it's not chuck and so it's something else. what could
that other thing be that michael is talking about?

i can't say for sure that i know. but here's a guess. maybe it has to
do with a struggle between us and the fundamentalists for the middle.
and right now the bad guys are winning. so let's say you've got more
or less mainstream christians with some views that we would like to
associate with fundamentalism (e.g.: biblically-based homophobia).
when life in america is cast as a culture war, and you're either with
god or against god, believers will pick the side they think god is
likeliest to be on -- or anyway, that god won't be against. if we
can't convince them that god is likely on our side, then they will
pick the rightwingers. not that they will turn into right-wingers, but
they will choose specific sides on specific issues.

so, organizingly speaking, how do you talk to those people? well,
really, you probably need other christians to talk to them, but in
general we can probably say you don't bring them on board by comparing
the object of their faith to santa claus. call me crazy. but we were
saying most people don't do that, right? so how DO we organize
ambivalent christians on an issue like gay marriage or gay rights
generally?

there's a good practical question for chuck, come to think of it. i
know how i try to do it, but i wonder how he would do it. or anyone
else, for that matter.

j

-- 
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Among medieval and modern philosophers, anxious to establish
the religious significance of God, an unfortunate habit has prevailed
of paying to Him metaphysical compliments.

  - Alfred North Whitehead