I still don't see where the speculation that a certain number of volunteers in the Viet Nam were not volunteers because they were basically volunteering under duress of future likely draft in which they would get worse positions has demonstrated that the number of authentic volunteers was actually a minority in Viet Nam. The speculation hasn't been quantified so as to refute Yoshies' basic statistical evidence that the majority of soldiers in combat in Viet Nam were authentic volunteers.
Also, Yoshie gave evidence that a similar phenomenon related to Stop-Loss policy in the Iraq war makes the volunteer status of many in Iraq questionable in a way similar to those volunteer draft "dodgers" in Viet Nam.
Anyway, Wojtek's original intervention which begins "autre temps, autre moeurs," is a sort of non-sequitur criticism of Yoshie's original comment, as far as I can tell. The thread is on portrayals of the diabled in films. Thomas S. makes a sort of aside on Yoshie's mention of anarachists soldiers in WWI. Yoshie responds that it is plausible that there were anarchists and other radicals among the soldiers. As far as I see, Yoshie says nothing comparing WWI troops with troops in Iraq today until after Wojtek intervenes with "autre temps, autre moeurs". But Yoshie hadn't said WWI anarchists were in like times and like morals to the present in Iraq.
Charles
At 01:31 PM 3/1/2005, Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
>>Autre temps, autre moeurs. These wars were fought with conscript armies.
>>Ditto for Vietnam, with similar effect (fragging).
>
>Philip Carter and Owen West write that "[v]olunteers outnumbered
>conscripts by a 9-1 ratio in the units that saw combat during the
>[Vietnam] war's early days in 1966" ("Iraq 2004 Looks Like Vietnam 1966,"
>Slate, December 27, 2004). Altogether during the Vietnam War, "1,728,344
>men were drafted. Of the forces who actually served in Vietnam, 648,500
>(25%) were draftees. Draftees (17,725) accounted for 30.4% of combat
>deaths in Vietnam" ("The Draft and Historical Amnesia," VFW Magazine,
>March, 2003). In short, conscripts were a minority during the Vietnam War.
I think the problem with that number--and I think some military honcho pointed this out himself (back in the early 70s) [1]-- was that people often felt impelled to join before they got drafted. My wasband's older brother, for instance, joined to avoid being drafted and, thus, to get a better post. It was rumored that, if you joined, you'd get 'cushier' billet.
Carrol said the same rumor was popular during the Korean War, which is why he joined -- IIRC -- to get a better chance at a safer assignment.
There is a subtle difference in attitudes, I'm sure, but I suspect that, when the going got tough, VN era soliders felt just as trapped as they could be.
The conscript army of today, to which Woj refers, takes that point seriously. He was, afterall, describing our volunteer army as "conscripts".
[1] too lazy to hunt it down at the mo' but it was a famous diatribe about the state of the military which placed the blame on the draft (and if memory doesn't fail [bad assumption!]), he also pointed out that even volunteers weren't wholly volunteers. At any rate, can anyone remember the General's (?) name? I've even posted it here in the past, but I'm completely blanking out on the name.