heh. Reminds me of a few years ago, there was an article circulating, "A good top is hard to find." Cat asked me to hunt it down then, I did, but I can't find it to save my life. It's on a floppy -- somewhere.
you might also find this interesting: "In A Taste for Pain, Maria Marcus recounts an anecdote about a women's studies conference in 1972. Germaine Greer, the keynote speaker, was interrupted by a young woman from the audience who suddenly cried out: "But how can we start a women's movement when I bet three-quarters of us sitting in this room are masochists?" Greer replied: "Yes, we know women are masochists--that's what it's all about!"
> > And the "I told you so" approach would work?
>
>Definitely.
>
> > But, do we want so many people who want to be punished
>on our side?
>
>Of course we do. They make wonderful foot soldiers and
>the best of them are creative and offer useful advice to
>strengthen the cause without ever wanting to be in charge.
>Good BDS gatherings and activism would be impossible
>without them.
Hmmmm. WEll, I'll talk to you more about this one, offlist. :)
> > That whole "I want to be punished" thing drives the
>hairshirt leftism that people often deride, no?
>
>No. Hairshirt leftism i sjust pubilc protestations of guilt
>by those who do not want to be punished. Those who
>seek punishment do not make a big thing of it; they
>just assume the position that ismost natural to them.
OK. That's interesting. So, moving from where I started, in an attempt to ground the abstract conversation into a discussion about how to proceed (I know Carrol is going to get upset with that statement -- I agree it's too simplistic), what do you envision then?
If my approach is unacceptable, because it isn't sufficiently capable of picking up on this dynamic -- the swath of people who wish to be humiliated -- then how should we go about humiliating them into becoming allies?
Kelley
(I'm sorry if I've overposted lately, I would just really like to hear some practical ways to do this, because I'm willing to get the ball rolling, but I need some feedback and more thoughts thrown into the cauldron. TX!)
"Finish your beer. There are sober kids in India."
-- rwmartin