<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> <title></title> </head> <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> Andie are you drunk?  I advocated from the start an immediate withdrawl, I  then said that I thought that strategically and morally it was wrong to place any more guilt on the shoulders of grunts then on any other member of US society.  I further argued that inorder to get grunts to take responsibility it might be easier if the rest of the society to which they belong took their own responsibility for the war rather then somehow seeing themselves as insulated and apart from it when attempting to engage with would be enlistees or re-enlistees on the question of the war. My respose to Doug was a tongue in cheek response to the question: "how far do you think collective responsibility (on the part of US citizens) extends?  As for the rest of your post go fuck yourself you intellectual light weight.  Try reading all the posts in the thread before climbing on that high horse.  I should sue you for libel given that you have inverted everything I wrote.  Hitchens indeed.  I expect an apology. Travis andie nachgeborenen wrote: <blockquote cite="mid20051127164040.56520.qmail@web50407.mail.yahoo.com" type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Which, as far as I can tell from your posts, means for you condescendingly morally condemning grunts who are sent into combat and largely do what they're told. I am sure they will appreciate your superior concern, from yuour position of purity, for their moral benightedness, and I wish you luck in preaching the gospel. Doug and I will refuse to condemn them even if they don't refuse to serve or start fragging their officers. In your mind this seem to put advocates of immediate and unconditional withdrawl, like us, in the same league as Hitchens. As liberal democrat, I take umbrage at that (don't worry, kells, I'll put it bnack); I'm not a neocon. Doig can take his own umbrage. I suppose you think of youreself as some sort of Marxist. Youa re in error. You are in fact precisely the kind of high-horse moralist Marx despised. Saving souls indeed. Marxism would have you ask not, what us thew idaelly morally perfect psition to take, but, what attitude and actions will be most effective in opposing imperialism? A liberal democrat like me is a better Marxist tahn you here. --- Travis Fast <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tfast@yorku.ca"><tfast@yorku.ca></a> wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Are you now pulling a hitchens? But to answer you directly: to the max that is how far it goes. And if the left took this seriously they would would descend from the heavens and touch their own humanity and in so doing discover the humanity of those they wish to save. I say unto you brother repent and see the men and women before you. Travis Doug Henwood wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Travis Fast wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">The point is Yoshie, you can either take the </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">approach that the </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">average soldier is no more and no less </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">responsible then the average </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">AMerican for the war </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> Lots of average Americans voted against Bush. Most </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">average soldiers </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">have followed, or would follow, orders to go to </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">war. How far does </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">collective responsbility extend? Doug ___________________________________ </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk">http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk</a> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> ___________________________________ </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk">http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk</a> </pre> <pre wrap=""> __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://mail.yahoo.com">http://mail.yahoo.com</a> ___________________________________ <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk">http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk</a> </pre> </blockquote> </body> </html>