[lbo-talk] Hersh on Bush & Iran

[Louis Kontos]

Woj,
you're presenting false dichotomies and choices as I see it: moralism  
vs realism, the elimination of the military vs reforming it. Also, I  
see no need to compare the U.S. military to Rwandan militias, or  
Liberia etc. Wife beaters can draw similar comparisons between  
themselves and worse wife beaters -- since there is always something  
worse. I don't believe that the personnel of the Armed Forces are  
especially sadistic, more so than, say, wall street or academic  
types. I don't believe that moral appeals are of much value -- unless  
they come from the church, or WWII veterans or others deemed pillars  
of moral virtue or accomplishment within the mainstream -- given the  
moral fervor surrounding military adventures, one after another.  Yet  
I do believe in speaking clearly about such issues, including the  
issue of imperialism / colonialism. If the nation maintains  
hysterical fear, indifference to the plight of others around the  
world, a sense of righteousness and entitlement against the claims  
and grievances of all others, and concomitantly, continues to value  
and trust the military over other institutions, like education,  
government and media, there is no possibility of meaningful social  
debate or change -- reformist, incrementalist, or otherwise. To say  
this is not to moralize, but simply to try to come to terms with real  
problems and struggles ahead. Moreover, nobody on this list --  
certainly not me -- argued for the elimination of the military. To  
have a military that protects people from 'imminent' threats, is one  
thing, and to spend 400 plus billion dollars (not including Iraq) on  
a military geared toward adventures that serve the interests of a  
small elite, to expand the empire in 'our name' without our consent  
(expect what has been manufactured through ubiquitous propaganda),  
well, that's another thing. No moralism in speaking clearly about the  
difference. I don't believe that talking about military personnel as  
misguided or victimized by poverty or anything else provides a basis  
for appealing to those personnel, nor anybody.
Louis

On Apr 11, 2006, at 9:06 AM, Wojtek Sokolowski wrote:


> Carl:
>
>> The source of meaningless babbling here seems to be your own
>> keyboard.  Your "Lord of the Flies" defense -- i.e., that
>> "there is a sadistic asshole in virtually everyone of us" --
>
> Where did you get the idea that what I posted was a "defense" of  
> any kind?
> I simply stated that there is enough debased, sadistic people in  
> the world,
> that the elimination of the military would merely eliminate only  
> one venue
> for the actualization of this vast debased sadistic potential.  One  
> can as
> well argue that keeping these debased sadists in the barracks poses  
> less
> threat to civility than keeping them at large.
>
> As to the US military -it indeed is the force of the evil empire  
> and all
> that, no question about that.  I also understand that the US  
> military often
> suffers from the "cowboy/badass attitude" - as for example  
> described by
> Parenti in his The Nation piece on Iraq and Afghanistan, much more  
> so than
> the EU or Canadian troops - but let's not lose the sense of  
> proportion here.
> If you think the US military is particularly debased and sadistic,  
> I suggest
> you try other countries - Russia, Indonesia, Pakistan, India,  
> China, Rwanda,
> Liberia, Zimbabwe and so on.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3756866.stm
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4674366.stm
> By these standards, the US military is a paragon of  
> professionalism.    So
> focusing on the US military without denouncing military forces of  
> other
> countries is pointless and disingenuous.   It is, as you say, a  
> debased
> institution almost by definition, but also one that is unlikely to  
> disappear
> any time soon, or for that matter, when the Revolution finally  
> comes.  So
> let's keep things in a perspective.
>
> To reiterate - I am not trying to "defend" the military - either US  
> or in
> general.  I am merely trying to be less moralistic and more realistic.
>
> Wojtek
>
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