Yeah, I know Muslims go to mosque when they hear the muezzin call out the adhan and they pray on little rugs five times a day and was their hands and feet first. It all kind of comes up when you read ANYTHING about Islam
I was reading to figure out how you and Yoshie could possibly twist around the clear aims of political Islam and construe them as left-wing. In your case, I think you greatly over-emphasize the practical importance of the Enlightenment and left-wing rhetoric from the 19th century Salafists of al-Azhar University. In Yoshie's case, I think she is so over-excited at the idea of revolution that any group who opposes the U.S. and puts the word "revolutionary" in their name pretty much has her blessing. I also think she doesn't really take Western religion seriously and so she figures that, deep-down everybody is willing to dismiss it.
And again I tell you both that when people say that rights don't come from Constitutions but from God as revealed in Holy Books, they are not fucking around. This attitude is a threat to illegitimate regimes, yes, but it is also a threat to democracy and a terrible threat. A lot of people have very pre-capitalist, reactionary beliefs. Of course pre-capitalist beliefs are opposed to liberal capitalism. I bet the Romans would hate the power of Wall Street. But to see how you are confusing pre-capitalist, reactionary beliefs with something revolutionary, I would point you both to the minor controversy that Dennis Prager - the idiot conservative radio personality - has raised about our first Muslim congressman's intent to use a Quran in the private, photo-op swearing-in ceremony.
The initial article and follow-up can be found at www.townhall.com. And let's remember that Dennis Prager's religious chauvinism is NOTHING compared to that of the Shiite theocracy groups Yoshie praises. Here is a section of his most recent article I find particularly offensive:
"America derives its laws from its Constitution<http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=a_response_to_my_many_critics_-_and_a_solution&ns=DennisPrager&dt=12/05/2006&page=full&comments=true#>. It derives its values from the Bible. We don't get inalienable rights from the Constitution; we get them from God. Which is exactly what the signers of the Declaration of Independence wrote: We are endowed with inalienable rights by our Creator, not by government and not by any man-made document. And that Creator and those inalienable rights emanate from the Bible. Keith Ellison's freedom to openly believe and practice Islam and to run for elective office as a Muslim is a direct result of a society molded by the Bible and the people who believed in it, a fact he should be willing to honor as he is sworn in.
I cannot name any Western European country that does not have a document similar to the American Constitution and something akin to our Bill of Rights. It is, therefore, not the Constitution that has made America unique and a moral beacon to the world's downtrodden. What has made America unique is the combination of Enlightenment ideas with our underlying Judeo-Christian values. (I have described 24 of those values in 24 columns in 2005, all available on the Internet through www.pragerradio.com.)
It was understood from the beginning of the republic that liberty is derived from God, not from man alone. That is why the Liberty Bell has an inscription from the Bible (from the Torah in the Old Testament) on it, not an inscription from any secular Enlightenment (or ancient Greek) source."
Note how Prager, like other Movement Conservatives, dismisses out of hand the significance of English legal history, the Common Law, and the many innovations America made to legal thinking. For a reactionary like Prager, this is essential. His ideas are pre-capitalist. For a socialist it's doom. To dismiss this tradition out of hand is to completely misunderstand the capitalist revolution and it hobbles you as a socialist, in my view. Anti-Westernism and Anti-capitalism are not good things in and of themselves, unless monarchies are to be praised.
boddi
On 12/4/06, tfast <tfast at yorku.ca> wrote:
>
> You do know that muslims go to mosque?
> ____________________________________
>
>
> No, but I am saying that you're an idiot.
>
>
>
> On 12/4/06, tfast <tfast at yorku.ca> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Boddi writes
> > Ya don't think those 1400 years of religious teching had anything to do
> > with it, do ya?
> >
> > Jesus Christ! Get back to reality! Ayatollah Khomeini wasn't a cell
> > leader. He was an established clergyman in the dominant church in Iran.
> >
> > Travis Reponds:
> >
> > Boddi are you saying the Ayatollah is actualy a christian cleric and
> > that Iran is a christian country?
> >
> > ___________________________________
> > http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
> >
> >
> ------------------------------
>
> ___________________________________
> http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
>
>
> ___________________________________
> http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <../attachments/20061205/f5dd2808/attachment.htm>