It appeared to be a casual comment (if perhaps a harsh comment while the body of the accused but not convicted, is still warm), until someone made the case that MFs prescriptions were active under Pinochet (we may agree, a man guilty of mass murders) and therefore attributable to MF by association, and in any event MF's policy prescriptions were repsonsible for immiseration and death resulting therefrom.
The argument is a werid one: at any rate, better to focus on the policy not the man, it gains little to say he was guilty of genocide (which, as a lawyer who works on similar matters in Central America, I can tell you, he is not in a narrow, legal sense), and not much more to pin deaths as a result of immiseration on him. I agree, if you stand around while others gun down the opposition party, you are commiting some kind of moral if not legal wrong. I also agree, monetary and government policy under his influence caused misery, and as part of that death to many that perhaps otherwise would have been avoidable. But let's hear about how monetarism immiserated and didn't in the end affect inflation rates (interesting in light of the commodity boom recently, a seemingly more likely candidate), or how people do or don't include assets in their consumptions decisions (interesting in light of the refinancing boom and now bust), or why we don't have theories of (legal) liability connecting third party victims to state monetary policy...
SA
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: lbo-talk-request at lbo-talk.org <lbo-talk-request at lbo-talk.org> Date: Nov 16, 2006 5:16 PM Subject: lbo-talk Digest, Vol 35, Issue 160 To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Uncle Miltie, he dead (boddi satva)
2. Re: Uncle Miltie, he dead (John Thornton)
3. Re: Uncle Miltie, he dead (Doug Henwood)
4. Uncle Miltie, he dead (Charles Brown)
5. Re: Uncle Miltie, he dead (bitch)
6. Re: Uncle Miltie, he dead (Michael J. Smith)
7. Re: Uncle Miltie, he dead (Jason Morris)
8. China, U.S. vow to deepen cooperation on intellectual
property protection (uvj at vsnl.com)
9. Tased in the library (double bluff)
10. Another obit of St. Ellen (Charles Brown)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 12:29:02 -0800 From: "boddi satva" <lbo.boddi at gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Uncle Miltie, he dead To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org Message-ID:
<d25729380611161229n5c2c89cdy212ebe927342692f at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I think Friedman rightly focused on the importance of money and the role of money as a medium of economic relationships. Although I think a lot of his ideas were wrong, I think they were powerful enough and well-thought-out enough to push the inquiry forward. If you look at that little video about the pencil and think about it, you see that money is a connecting medium - a very broad social agreement and an economic language. Friedman definitely over-emphasized a certain view of that medium and drew conclusions I don't agree with, but as I say, he pushed the argument forward.
Of course his polemics also tended to push people away from studying money because they associated the real, economic inquiry with the political nonsense and excess. But, as with most thinkers, you have to separate the academic and the polemic.
boddi
On 11/16/06, Steven L. Robinson <srobin21 at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "boddi satva" <lbo.boddi at gmail.com>
>
> , right about a lot of things
>
> Such as?
>
>
> > and certainly added positively to the debate about economics.
>
>
> How so?
> ___________________________________
> http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:30:00 -0600 From: John Thornton <jthorn65 at sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Uncle Miltie, he dead To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org Message-ID: <455CCA48.7030505 at sbcglobal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
boddi satva wrote:
>
> Friedman was wrong about a lot of things, right about a lot of things
> and certainly added positively to the debate about economics. I didn't
> care for his views as a political figure, but so what?
What exactly do you think he was correct concerning? He was just a propagandist. His theories were of no value to anyone except as propaganda. Hardly a worthwhile contributor to economics.
He was, to use a term posted here by someone else a few years back, a malignant fuck and dying may possibly be the only worthwhile contribution he ever makes to society. Provided he is properly mulched rather than interred or cremated.
John Thornton
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:42:30 -0500 From: Doug Henwood <dhenwood at panix.com> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Uncle Miltie, he dead To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org Message-ID: <9FF32330-E8E3-45AB-B7E1-72F8146DB25A at panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
On Nov 16, 2006, at 3:29 PM, boddi satva wrote:
> I think Friedman rightly focused on the importance of money and the
> role of money as a medium of economic relationships.
But he was wrong about the economic influence of the money supply. And if you want to talk about the social role of money, give me Marx anyday.
Doug
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:52:26 -0500 From: "Charles Brown" <cbrown at michiganlegal.org> Subject: [lbo-talk] Uncle Miltie, he dead To: <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org> Message-ID: <B0077869914 at mail3.infoquesthosting.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
boddi satva:
Now come on - this is unreasonable.
Milton Friedman is a genocidal murderer?
Please, that's silly.
^^^^^ CB: Don't feign naivete. Millions of poor people die prematurely because they are poor. Friedman's theories/propaganda were the rationalization for real world practice that perpetuated and aggravated mass poverty. Therefore his "business" was a culpable cause of mass premature death.
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:54:52 -0500 From: bitch <bitch at pulpculture.org> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Uncle Miltie, he dead To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20061116155418.02e83380 at pop.inkworkswell.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
can i post this at my blog, with a link to yours. or, did you post this at your blog? thanks.
At 03:28 PM 11/16/2006, Jerry Monaco wrote:
>On 11/16/06, boddi satva <<mailto:lbo.boddi at gmail.com>lbo.boddi at gmail.com>
>wrote:
>Now come on - this is unreasonable.
>
>Milton Friedman is a genocidal murderer?
>
>Please, that's silly.
>
>
>
>Well it depends. I at least think it is arguable. If he takes moral
>responsibility for the policies his students instituted and he supported
>in places like Pinochet's Chili. Miltie was not a war criminal in the
>same way as Henry Kissinger and he was not a murderous dictator in the
>same was Pinochet, but he and his students were advisers, supporters, and
>props to war criminals and murderous dictators. And they were props to
>the atrocities that the dictators instituted in order to enforce "shock"
>economics.
>
>It is _not_ unreasonable to think of nice little Uncle Miltie as a
>supporter of mass murder and if you think it is then you should look into
>what he and the Chicago Boys were doing through the 1970s and the 1980s.
>
>Now, I can understand why anyone would like that little clip referred to
>on youtube
>
><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbRcmKRv-zo>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbRcmKRv-zo
>
>But look at what he says. He has done no research on the "pencil" in the
>example. That is because details don't matter to him. He is making a
>general point about the fact that "no one person can make the pencil" and
>it is all because of the "pricing system" of capitalism.
>
>He says "for all I know" the wood to make the tree was cut down in the
>state of Washington. Well he doesn't know. Does he ever take the time in
>what he writes to see exactly what the economic policies are that "allow"
>for the cutting of that wood. Is it the miracle of the "pricing system"
>or is it the fact that public lands are "leased" to companies and that
>these companies have to pay very little back to repair the damage that
>they do, the damage that we are left to live with.
>
>He says that the graphite in the pencil comes from somewhere, he knows not
>where, but he "thinks" it might be mines in South America. And his point
>again is that it is the "pricing system" that brought the people together
>to make this pencil. Does he tell you about the miners in South America
>who were murdered because they tried to form unions or who die as soon as
>they go into mines because the policies he and his Chicago Boys helped to
>keep in place run counter to mine safe? No. Those details, like the
>details of where the graphite actually comes from, are too sordid for the
>likes of the nice Uncle Miltie to deal with.
>
>He says, "Literally thousands of people cooperated to make this
>pencil." But I could say the same about a cotton shirt made in 1833 in
>England, even though the cotton was picked by the "cooperation" of the
>slaves. It doesn't matter how the cooperation came about in his view. It
>is cooperation if it conforms to the pricing system. It is cooperation
>that conforms to the "pricing system" of "capitalism" even if in every
>detail it is highly subsidized by government and everybody but the people
>responsible are left to clean up the mess. That is Uncle Miltie.
>
>Jerry
>
>Friedman was wrong about a lot of things, right about a lot of things
>and certainly added positively to the debate about economics. I didn't
>care for his views as a political figure, but so what?
>
>
>
>To Jesse
>Jesse Lemisch
>to lbo-talk
>show details
> 2:54 pm (14 minutes ago)
>
>Jerry Monaco says:
>
>"The U of C[hicago] in my day... If you stayed away from the B-school and
>the Law School as an undergrad you were pretty safe from the coarse
>ideologies and then you only had to deal with the Maoists or the Sparts in
>the quad, for your quota of ideology. "
>
>JL What about the Straussians in the College, infesting Soc I, Ralph
>Lerner, etc.? As junior faculty and then fired, I had as much difficulty
>with these people as with Boorstin et al in the History Dept. And there
>was a strange alliance between Straussians and Hutchinsonians, both happy
>to study ideas in a vacuum (as in The People Shall Judge
>
>Jerry: I was an undergrad in the mid to late 70s. The experience of a
>wide-eyed undergrad is bound to be different than that of a young academic
>trying to get a foot hold. So as an undergrad having Eric Cochrane or
>Leonard Olsen for a core subject was a revelation to this small town
>boy. I didn't mind the Straussian's because I was pretty much
>un-seduceable. And truly you could avoid these people if you picked your
>classes right. But for a young guy or gal trying to make tenure or
>establish a foot-hold I expect that the likes of the Straussians and
>others were pretty much unavoidable. I did like the few Thomists who
>seemed to be left over from an earlier time and the Marxists who seemed to
>be gathered in odd nooks and crannies, including the divinity school.
>
>Doug Wrote:
>To quote
>Miss Kittin on Frank Sinatra, "He's dead. Hehehehe. Dead."
>
>JM: Now that is going too far! I am shocked, shocked! One of the great
>artists of the 20th century and no matter what the degeneration of his
>politics we should regret his loss in the same way I regretted the deaths
>of Louis Armstrong and Jean-Paul Sartre, long after their times had past.
>
>Doug, you are hereby condemned to five hours of deep blackness and you
>must sink deep into sexual despair by listening very closely to _Frank
>Sinatra Sings For Only the Lonely_, _The Wee Small Hours of the Morning_,
>_Where are You_ and _No One Cares_.
>
>Jerry
>
>
>___________________________________
>http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
------------------------------
Message: 6 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 17:01:48 -0400 From: "Michael J. Smith" <mjs at smithbowen.net> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Uncle Miltie, he dead To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org Message-ID: <200611161601.48875.mjs at smithbowen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
On Thursday 16 November 2006 14:21, Jerry Monaco wrote:
> The U of C in my day felt like a monastery and not a prison....
> If you stayed away from the B-school and the Law School as an
> undergrad you were pretty safe from the coarse ideologies and then you
only
> had to deal with the Maoists or the Sparts in the quad, for your quota of
> ideology.
You forgot the Aristotelians in the English department. A wilder-eyed gang of fanatics you never saw.
--
Michael J. Smith
http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org
------------------------------
Message: 7 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:59:36 -0500 From: "Jason Morris" <jamorris at hotmail.com> Subject: [lbo-talk] Re: Uncle Miltie, he dead To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org Message-ID: <BAY129-F120F0FC5FFFA605559F7F9DCE90 at phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
No such thing as a free lunch,unless someone throws a coconut cream pie in your face:
http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/profiles/image/friedmanpieface.gif
http://www.cultureshop.org/details.php?code=PIE
(couldn't find the video of the pie-ing online)
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------------------------------
Message: 8 Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 02:18:11 +0500 From: uvj at vsnl.com Subject: [lbo-talk] China, U.S. vow to deepen cooperation on
intellectual property protection To: lbo <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org> Message-ID: <e2d3cdff864e.455d1be3 at vsnl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
People's Daily Online, http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/
China
UPDATED: 08:11, November 14, 2006
China, U.S. vow to deepen cooperation on intellectual property protection http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200611/14/eng20061114_321172.html
Senior officials from China and the United States have vowed to further strengthen cooperation on intellectual property protection.
China attaches great importance to the United States' experiences of intellectual property protection and would like to learn from its advanced technological management measures on combating internet piracy, said Liu Binjie, deputy director of the State Press and Publication Administration. Liu had a closed-door meeting with Jon Dudas, under secretary of the U.S. Department of Commerce for Intellectual Property, on Monday.
"We exchanged views on laws and policies on how to fight internet piracy in China, the implementation of intellectual property regulations and the closer cooperation between the two sides," Liu told reporters after the one-hour discussion.
According to Liu, the United States and China have designated special liaison officers to deal with intellectual property projects and called for them to hold their first meeting as soon as possible. In the long-term, they will hold visits annually.
Dudas, who is also the director of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, said the U.S. side was willing to share experiences with China on anti-piracy.
He said the United States would send experts to train Chinese intellectual property officials, and would invite them to visit the Cyber-Crime Division of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.
Dudas also congratulated China on its 100-day nationwide intensive anti-piracy campaign, calling the campaign "useful and encouraging".
Source: Xinhua
Copyright by People's Daily Online, all rights reserved
------------------------------
Message: 9 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 22:24:32 +0100 From: double bluff <mullah_omar at email.it> Subject: [lbo-talk] Tased in the library To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org Message-ID: <455CD710.9040406 at email.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Quite worrying:
Americans To Be Tortured For Refusing To Show ID? Student shocked, tortured for defending constitutional rights
Paul Joseph Watson Prison Planet Thursday, November 16, 2006
A horror video that wouldn't look out of place in Maoist China or Nazi Germany shows a student being repeatedly shot with a stun gun by UCLA police for the crime of not showing his ID. As similar cases begin to pile up how long will it be before Americans are routinely tortured for noncompliance and refusing to have their 4th amendment violated?
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2006/161106torturedid.htm
------------------------------
Message: 10 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 17:16:00 -0500 From: "Charles Brown" <cbrown at michiganlegal.org> Subject: [lbo-talk] Another obit of St. Ellen To: <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org> Message-ID: <B0077879131 at mail3.infoquesthosting.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
OBITUARIES Ellen Willis, 64; radical critic targeted foibles wherever she saw them, on the left or right
By Jocelyn Y. Stewart Times Staff Writer
November 15, 2006
In the months after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, a chasm "the size of ground zero" opened between feminist author and cultural critic Ellen Willis and the burgeoning anti-war movement.
Willis was a radical, but she supported military action ( but that's ok - CB) and found herself taken aback by young protesters "looking and sounding like preserved specimens of the '60s anti-war counterculture, with the same songs and peace-and-love slogans."
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-willis15nov15,1,59 31964.story
------------------------------
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