Messages in this group
* Re: [lbo-talk] the view from capital
* Re: [lbo-talk] the view from capital
* Re: [lbo-talk] the view from capital
* Re: [lbo-talk] 9/11 nuttery going mainstream
* Re: [lbo-talk] the view from capital
* Re: [lbo-talk] the view from capital
=========== Message 1 =========== Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] the view from capital
At around 11/9/06 3:46 am, Steve Palmer wrote:
> But so-called 'computing science', at least in the United States, is a soft
> science, and is closer to the arts and 'social sciences'.
>
But I never used the term "computing science". I used the phrase "computer programming" to describe the field I was talking about. I then used the phrase "Computer Science" to describe the education that is available in this field. Regarding computer science, a few points: similar to the point someone else made, computer science includes a whole lot of things. Some of that (such as foundations) is extremely rigorous. Would make physics look like astrology in comparison. Other stuff would fare well too, in any comparison: complexity of algorithms, theorem solving, finite automata, compiler design, and so on. A lot more certain than say medical "science" (you give the example of a software error frying a patient, but what do the numbers look like when you compare physician error against automaton error?).
The problem with computer science is that where it is a science it is not much applicable to the real world, and where the real world is concerned little is taught in colleges.
I think though that what is relevant for this discussion is not whether computer science is a hard science or a soft one, but whether it is an area of work with large employment opportunities (remember we are talking about jobs, wages and education), and that it surely is. In fact one of the most lucrative ones available today. In such a field, a significant amount of contributions come from people without certificates, and that is the point of relevance in my message.
In fact, the mention of hard/soft sciences, is quite useful. Many, many jobs (the vast majority I would venture) are not hard science jobs, at all. More below.
> Peter Neumann's Risks
> Forum is a catalog of cockups by 'computer science' which would not be
> tolerated in a real science. Usually nobody gets hurt - just a lot of money and
> resources wasted.
And Marvin Minsky is still gainfully employed at no less a shrine than MIT ;-).
> When you go under the knife, would you prefer that the surgeon has a
> qualification, or not? Would you rather fly in a plane designed by an
> egyptologist or an aeronautical engineer? Would you rather cross a bridge
> designed by a media studies buff or a civil engineer?
Well, how general are these cases? How many of us require surgery in our entire lifetimes? I am asking about generality because we are trying to understand how education and jobs/wages are related, in the general scheme of things. With regards to bridges, there are many bridges built by non civil engineers, some of them still around!, which generations of human beings have used for thousands of years. Mohammad Atta, my anti-skeptical conspiracists tell me, learned to fly a plane without a degree in aeronautical engineering.
These are good hypotheticals, but what of the real world? How many of the services and devices that you rely on and use on a daily basis are built by those certified academically in that process?
My friends with degrees in history pressed me to join their startup in Silicon Valley, back in 1996. They were developing a Java server. I didn't want to move to the West coast at that time and declined. Today they are flying private planes ;-). And no, they have no academic training in flying ;-).
> Why a link between wage and education? This is a capitalist not a socialist
> society, so the wage depends on the cost of producing the labour-power, the
> scarcity of the skill, the tight organization of those with the skill etc.
> Quaint notions of 'justice', 'fairness' etc don't come into it.
Come in where? In society, or on LBO? Or into this discussion? What's the point of this list if we are to stay within the parameters of what is the reality of the day?
=========== Message 2 =========== Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] the view from capital
At around 11/9/06 5:28 am, Bill Bartlett wrote:
>>
>> (I can't believe I am getting involved in one more thread!!! ;-))
>
> I'm glad you did. The "Anarchuck" alone was worth it.
>
;-) Glad to be of some use on the list!
=========== Message 3 =========== Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] the view from capital
At around 11/9/06 8:49 am, Carl Remick wrote:
>> From: ravi <gadfly at exitleft.org>
>>
>> ... None of the years I spent learning Math and
>> Computer Science has made me better-equipped to cope with the world. ...
>
> Believe me, you're better equipped than someone burdened by a liberal
> arts background. It's been said that the liberal arts teach you how to
> enjoy life without the high-paying job they prevent you from getting.
> But I don't think they're even successful at that anymore. Having spent
> many frustrating years as a ghostwriter trying to give the crass,
> inchoate effusions of corporate technocrats a veneer of logic and
> erudition, I am sorry I didn't pay more attention in math class as a
> youth and become a civil engineer.
>
The years I spent obtaining my degree in mathematics were some of the best and maths will I think always be one of the most beautiful thing I have ever learnt or seen. But no, I am afraid neither mathematics nor CS made an iota of difference in my job. I sympathize with your job situation, and perhaps civil engineering (or in my case mathematics or CS) may have led you to better job satisfaction, but I am not sure it would have helped you cope with the world or get away from corporate types. There are hundreds and thousands of people working in software engineering today. Many of them earn a lot more than what a liberal arts major would if (s)he was working on a job related to her education. Do you really think (a) that these 100s of 1000s are doing things (s)he is incapable of? (b) are qualified for their jobs more than (s)he could be with some self-instruction? (c) that they are applying optimal data structures and calculating time-space complexity of their algorithms? Most of us in the field learn the syntax of some language and use common sense to get from point A to point B. Some of us do even less, dragging buttons and menus around in some code generation tool.
=========== Message 4 =========== Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] 9/11 nuttery going mainstream
At around 11/9/06 9:43 am, Chuck wrote:
>
> I don't think that the 9/11 movement is racist, but that some of their
> arguments are racist, either consciously or unconsciously.
>
You see, this is an even stronger claim/position. You are removing the agent, and hence intention, from what constitutes 'racism', and instead describing racism as a type of argument. So anyone offering this argument is de facto racist (at best unconsciously so). To make this stick is going to require more work than has been attempted thus far.
=========== Message 5 =========== Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] the view from capital
At around 10/9/06 11:44 pm, joanna wrote:
>
> ravi, help me out here, tell everyone about why having a brahmin caste
> is a bad idea.
>
You mean more proof is needed than I have offered? ;-)
=========== Message 6 =========== Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] the view from capital
At around 10/9/06 11:52 pm, joanna wrote:
> Ah, thanks, ravi. That's exactly what I wanted to say but couldln't
> figure out how. And I asked for your help before I read your missive.
>
>
No, actually I think you nailed it better, with your "money" (no pun) line:
=> If every person in the U.S. had a college degree, many would still => not be making a living wage.
I think that's a good way to condense it. I agree with both you and Doug, that the right approach is not reductionism, or claims that education (even formal) is a bad idea.
--ravi
-- Support something better than yourself: ;-) PeTA: http://www.peta.org/ GreenPeace: http://www.greenpeace.org/ If you have nothing better to do: http://platosbeard.org/