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<DIV><FONT face=Courier color=#000000 size=+2>Travis wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Courier color=#000000 size=+2><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Courier color=#000000 size=+2>"And for<BR>what? You
either think sv and therefore ultimately profits originates with<BR>the
exploitation of labour or you don't. No amount of self referential
(ie</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Courier color=#000000 size=+2>in relation to initial premises)
is going to move the debate. Some people<BR>think corn is the alpha,
others entrepreneurs; and yet others who think that<BR>it is labour which
raises and transforms corn and the ambitions of<BR>entrepreneurs into use
values and thereby exchange values. </FONT><FONT face=Arial
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<DIV>(Rakesh) So we might as well believe what ever we had already wanted to
believe? And what happens if we ourselves believe contradictory things, if we
are ourselves unsure about what it is believe or should believe? Wouldn't
there then be a need for a more patient and reasoned approach?</DIV><FONT
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>(Travis) Not faith. Perhaps the realism of
the starting premises however. Excuse the pun but I have no truck with
models that start with corn and finish with corn. Either the premises
can be justified or they can not. </FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<DIV>Now on to the specific points:(Rakesh)</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Courier color=#000000 size=+2>"Take the model you gave and
substitute computers</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Courier color=#000000 size=+2>for highly skilled labour, for
gold semi-skilled labour and for wheat (with all due respect to my farming
family) unskilled labour and what do you have?<BR>An economy in which living
labour is the alpha and omega!</FONT>"</DIV>
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<DIV>(Rakesh) Don't get the point. </DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>(Travis) The point is simply this. It is
only a logical exercise. You could substitute any heading you like for
the objects in the model you cited and logically prove that they are
the source of the surplus. A monkey for computers, a cat for gold, and a
martian for corn. That it would be logically consistent is no proof of
anything except its logical integrity.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> (Rakesh)And especially since machines or the capital invested in
them do seem to be a source of new value in what Marx thought was a socially
objective illusion (socially objective in the sense that the illusion results
not from an ideologically motivated refusal to see but from the deceptiveness
of the market itself).</DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>(Travis) It is interesting if you look at the
silicon chip industry. The efficiencies are about shrinking die size so
as to minimize silicon loss. The illusion is created that they are
producing more with less because the previous process invovled such a high
degree of waste. This process often prevokes the mistaken response
that machines are responsible for creating a surplus when what they are doing
is allowing for less waste. First movers reap temporary monopoly profits
which are quickly competed away (about 4-6 months in the mainstream CPU
market) and a new price level is established. As an aside there was
interesting article in FT which mentioned that these machines are incredibly
expensive not just in terms of initial cost but in terms of the human labour
involved in keeping them working with precision and efficiency.
Last time I checked those who tend to machines count as direct labour in
the Marxian framework. </FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Courier color=#000000 size=+2><BR></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Courier color=#000000 size=+2>(Rakesh) The Sraffian need not
deny the special active role of direct labor in production to question whether
direct labor is the sole determinant of the magnitude of
profit.</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>(Travis) The magnitude of profit of enterprise
maybe determined in the short to meduim term by a whole host of factors (ie
political and economic rents) but the magnitude of profit at an economy wide
level is driven by the magnitude SV. I would further argue that in
highly competitive sectors (such as the silicon chip sector) the
magnitude of sv is directly related to the magnitude of profit of the
individual enterprise. As to the question of the stability and
quantitative dimensions of the relationship between SV and profit of
enterprise that is an interesting discussion in its own right but then one
either tacitly accepts the LTOV or one is havig a different
debate.</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
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face=Arial size=2>The point I am trying to make in all of this is that it
would be more interesting to spend ones energy sorting out what is
going in particular sectors and national economies via the use of Marxian
accounting identities than it would be to spend ones energy defending the LTOV
against logical corn models. If the neoclassicals can rule the world
with a parable Marxists can at least carry on with their parable and its more
convincing initial premises. </FONT>
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